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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 7, 2018 17:34:15 GMT
Has there ever been a French president (or the president of a lot of other countries) that was not seen as arrogant? It's sort of part of the job description, unless you want to lie to the people constantly and tell them that everything will be all right in the next ten minutes. One of Macron's big mistakes was probably not lying enough. The other big mistake was believing in trickle-down economics -- if you make the rich richer, they will share their wealth with the poor. So many people believe that crap; it is taught in their high class schools.
The biggest problem, though, is the fact that Paris has become the new Versailles. The rest of the country sees Paris as a bastion to be taken, too arrogant, too rich, too disconnected from the problems of the rest of the country. They are not entirely wrong, except for the fact that there are plenty of poor people in Paris having just as much trouble scratching out a living -- but the fact that they live in Paris makes them guilty, too.
Totally contradictory desires are another problem -- lower taxes, lower prices but MORE public services and financial aid to the needy. It just doesn't work that way.
I will certainly say that the rich have received too many tax breaks and this has to change, but it is a very tricky process to change things. When the rich flee to their usual tax havens, lots of jobs disappear, too.
Right now we need to see what happens tomorrow. Paris is going to be in total lock down -- all of the museums and most of the stores will be closed. That's one of the advantages of my neighbourhood -- if I don't go elsewhere in the city, there will be absolutely no sign of the revolution.
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Post by whatagain on Dec 7, 2018 17:46:19 GMT
Chirac ?
Macron is too complicated. He can't explain things to the average person. And he is certainly arrogant - telling people who can't get a job that he just has to cross the street to find one is not very subtle. At the same time, French put gigantic hopes in the President but want him to achieve great things without disturbing their habbits. Then when President doesn't live up to unreasonable expectations, they are very disappointed and hate who/what they loved the minute before.
Another problem is that people are fed up with politicians. Partly explained by this 'disconnection' between people in Paris and the rest of the French : everybody is asked to spend less, provide more and all for the good of the country. Ok. But at the same time, politicians are breeding among themselves and enrich by doing - what actually ? nobody understands why they get so much money for deliverables they don't see. They'd like to see the politicians suffer too...
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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 7, 2018 17:55:22 GMT
Chirac only became warm and cuddly when he left office. When he was in power, he relied on complete trash like Charles Pasqua or the uber-arrogant Alain Juppé to do the dirty work. And of course he made that delightful mistake of dissolving the National Assembly at the wrong time (like what almost happened to May when she dissolved parliament) -- the Socialists came to power and he had to take the back seat. Hard to be arrogant when you have no power.
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Post by bjd on Dec 7, 2018 18:08:08 GMT
Nothing to add to what Kerouac and Whatagain have said. Like in many other countries, people expect great changes when a new candidate comes along, but then don't like it when things do change. Macron was elected on a promise to reform France.
I agree he did some things I don't agree with: trickle-down economics has been discredited in both the US and Britain. No reason it should work here, and indeed it doesn't. But if people who do start companies and hire are discouraged, then jobs are not created either. Not everyone should be tarred with the same brush, but simplistic explanations are easy. The person in the article who wants the previous 4 years worth of tax breaks returned blames Macron. He has been in power only 18 months. Nobody talks about what used to be called Macron buses, but now lots of people have an alternative to expensive trains.
It is true that Macron does not have the "common touch". But the French tend to like someone presidential and monarchical, as long as he also goes patting cows' rumps at the agricultural fair. Hollande, the "normal" president was too normal, so they didn't like him either.
Scrapping the wealth tax was stupid, especially as a symbol. But if there is pressure for Macron and the government to back down on everything, it's the beginning of the end and France will just be back to its unreformable, ungovernable state.
And that housing allowance was reduced by 5€ a month! Local taxes have been lowered by more for some people too, but they don't mention that.
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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 7, 2018 18:48:47 GMT
One thing that I never understood is that every time a president said that income taxes had been reduced (Sarkozy, Hollande and Macron), my taxes really did go down. And yet whenever anybody was interviewed, they all claimed that the taxes had not gone down at all.
This year, my greatest advantage was qualifying for free transportation in the Paris metropolitan area (including the airports, Versailles, Disneyland or whatever). This represents a saving of almost 900 euros for me -- certainly nothing to complain about. Nothing to do with Macron, of course, but just the fact that the city of Paris is very rich and can do such things.
Speaking of rich, though, I read today that Luxembourg is planning to make transportation free in the entire country starting in 2020.
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Post by lagatta on Dec 7, 2018 18:49:12 GMT
Yes, but the housing allowance would be more for the poorest people. I don't know whether they are exempted from local taxes in France.
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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 7, 2018 18:53:38 GMT
Macron is cancelling the residency tax ("taxe d'habitation") for everybody, starting with the poorest and extending it to everybody else in the next two years. That's another 300 or so euros as far as I'm concerned, much more for lots of other people, since people in ancient buildings pay a lot less than people in modern buildings.
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Post by bjd on Dec 7, 2018 18:54:14 GMT
Indeed, that 20% figure is the one that is bandied about. I had understood that this 20% of the fuel tax was to be used for enviromental things, not returned to taxpayers. I also saw that the wealth tax "only" cost the state 3.4 billion euros but don't know how much the fuel tax was supposed to bring in.
Of course, if any government actually admitted how much is spent and how tax money is actually used, then there would be more uprisings everywhere. But wanting more from the state while not wanting to pay taxes is just not feasible.
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Post by bjd on Dec 7, 2018 18:59:28 GMT
I read that local taxes would be scrapped for most people but ours went up this year. Maybe they will go down next year. Of course, that will make a huge shortfall for local government services, as happened when the "taxe professionel" was thrown out to help businesses.
I believe most people pay local taxes but almost half the French pay no income tax. Okay, I just looked it up: 42.6% of the French pay income tax. Over the pay years, ever more of those in lower income brackets don't pay any.
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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 7, 2018 19:05:18 GMT
And of course that is a big reason why when income tax goes down, many people keep complaining about taxes never going down. All of the people who already don't pay income tax see no benefit from lower taxes in this category. But they certainly feel higher fuel taxes and higher gas and electricity.
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Post by bixaorellana on Dec 7, 2018 20:50:30 GMT
Wow ~ thanks to all of you! Admittedly I started reading the Guardian because of its unabashed contempt for Trump back in 2016 (& continuing). That of course means that I'm forced to acknowledge that the paper can show more bias than pure journalism at times, thus my question after reading their presentation of the gilets jaunes. Has there ever been a French president (or the president of a lot of other countries) that was not seen as arrogant? It's sort of part of the job description, unless you want to lie to the people constantly and tell them that everything will be all right in the next ten minutes. One of Macron's big mistakes was probably not lying enough. Thanks, Kerouac -- very succinct & clear. Will respond to some of what you said in my response to Whatagain. Macron is too complicated. He can't explain things to the average person. When I read that, I immediately thought of Walter Mondale & his 1984 bid for the US presidency. I supported him, but remember thinking as I watched him answer questions on tv that he'd never win the election. His answers were thoughtful, honest, and not sugar-coated. He didn't speak in sound bites & you could see reporters' eyes glazing over even as they interrupted him. So the news, so the American people and indeed, people everywhere. In reference to what Kerouac said about political lying I quote from my link on Mondale: When Mondale made his acceptance speech at the Democratic Convention, he said: "By the end of my first term, I will reduce the Reagan budget deficit by two‑thirds. Let's tell the truth. It must be done, it must be done. Mr. Reagan will raise taxes, and so will I. He will not tell you. I just did." While this was meant to show that Mondale would be honest with voters, it was instead largely interpreted as a campaign pledge to raise taxes to spend on domestic programs, which was unappealing to many voters. -- So much for telling the truth. trickle-down economics has been discredited in both the US and Britain. No reason it should work here, and indeed it doesn't. But if people who do start companies and hire are discouraged, then jobs are not created either. Not everyone should be tarred with the same brush, but simplistic explanations are easy. The person in the article who wants the previous 4 years worth of tax breaks returned blames Macron. He has been in power only 18 months. Nobody talks about what used to be called Macron buses, but now lots of people have an alternative to expensive trains. Exactly. The rich are not automatically evil and history has shown that getting rid of them overnight is not a magic fix. It is true that Macron does not have the "common touch". At least France doesn't have to cringe in embarrassment when Macron appears on the world stage. France should be like the US, which has a rich person president who emphatically shows the lowest common denominator touch. I found this of earlier this week to be an interesting article about the politics of taxes and climate change. Really good article, Huckle, which illuminated several issues for me. All of the people who already don't pay income tax see no benefit from lower taxes in this category. But they certainly feel higher fuel taxes and higher gas and electricity. That puts in a nutshell the source of most of the disgruntlement. Winter is upon France, with the need for heating the house and those trips back and forth to work mean watching ones money flow into the fuel pump. Their discontent may be insufficiently informed, they may be going about voicing it the wrong way against the wrong people, but some of their issues will have to be ameliorated and soon, even if that is in the form of promises which cannot be delivered overnight.
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Post by bjd on Dec 8, 2018 8:37:04 GMT
It needs a change in mentality too. Many people, especially in smaller towns, just don't walk. In the suburb where I live, there are 2 bus lines that go through to the subway station which is second from the end of the line. From the town centre, where I live, it takes 12 minutes to walk to the closest station. Yet I see people, often young and healthy, who will stand and wait for 15 minutes for a bus rather than walking. Or people will drive and try to park at the always-full subway station lot rather than taking a bus.
The town has also put in free shuttle buses that collect people from further away to take them to the subway, but of course, they don't run every 5 minutes.
On the news the other evening, a gilet jaune was interviewed. He had to cycle to work because he claimed he couldn't afford to drive: his distance was 3 km! That is less than 15 minutes by bike!
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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 8, 2018 16:32:32 GMT
French demonstrations are a recognised art form, because journalists and other commentators always refer to the ballet of the demonstrators and the law enforcement officers as they surge back and forth.
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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 8, 2018 19:35:58 GMT
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Post by bixaorellana on Dec 8, 2018 21:06:39 GMT
What is that metallic noise?
The bastards killed a tree!
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Post by breeze on Dec 8, 2018 21:14:45 GMT
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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 8, 2018 21:28:44 GMT
The situation is still not clear for so many reasons. The yellow vests have been blocking the hypermarkets and town centres and service stations, jeopardizing the jobs of so many people just like themselves, but the people in both situations say that it is the government's fault, or more specifically Macron himself. He has become evil personified.
Meanwhile, the authorities were quite happy with today, all things considered. The police were given freedom of movement in Paris. Last Saturday, they were completely under the orders of imbeciles who were not out in the streets and had no real knowledge of the situation and that's why things got completely out of hand. Half of the police were stuck protecting the Champs Elysées when there was nobody there but the trashers who were wrecking the surrounding unprotected streets. Today they were mobile at least and able to go after the violent elements. They also used armoured vehicles in Paris for this first time, and it apparently made quite an impression on barricade builders, because the trucks were designed to push barricades out of the way -- they didn't have anything like that last week.
The golden rule of demonstrations was not broken. In France, the worst possible thing that can happen is for the police to kill a demonstrator, and that has not happened.
Next up will be Macron's speech or whatever he does at the beginning of the week. A lot of people won't listen to him, but some of them will.
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Post by bjd on Dec 9, 2018 6:43:12 GMT
Fewer demonstrators, a lot more arrests, many preventively. Some damage anyway when the boards were pulled off stores that looters wanted merchandise from. Lots of baseball bats, pétanque balls and other potential weapons confiscated by searches on people going in to restricted areas. And more mobile policing.
One thing that shocked an American journalist commenting on the situation (he lives in Paris) was that even the peaceful demonstrators never said anything to those out destroying and burning cars, so a certain amount of enabling going on.
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Post by bixaorellana on Dec 9, 2018 6:51:10 GMT
Well, I doubt that voices of reasons would stop the berserkers, but you'd think that the peaceful demonstrators would want to go on record as distancing themselves from the thugs.
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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 9, 2018 7:02:59 GMT
Meanwhile, while a lot of the world was watching Paris, the same thing was happening in Brussels, where there were 450 arrests. When you compare the populations of the two cities, that is proportionately more than in Paris.
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Post by whatagain on Dec 9, 2018 12:02:19 GMT
A lot less gilets jaunes in Bruxelles too. So the rate of arrested people versus demonstrators is huge Seems to prove a lot of demonstrators are just there for destruction. The peaceful ones stayed home.
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Post by whatagain on Dec 9, 2018 12:03:38 GMT
My wife was in Bruxelles yesterday. With her car ( the fiat 500 - less visible ) and she saw a lot of police and roads blocked. She made quite a detour to come back. Smart is my wife.
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Post by lagatta on Dec 9, 2018 13:49:47 GMT
While the initial purpose was to target luxury cars and other luxury goods, I'm sure the normal little Fiat 500 is not spared.
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Post by casimira on Dec 9, 2018 14:47:44 GMT
I had somehow thought that the demonstrators had abated but I guess they took a day or two off.
I just heard on the news that Macron is scheduled to address the nation sometime today.
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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 9, 2018 15:57:31 GMT
No, not today. Monday or Tuesday.
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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 14, 2018 19:11:40 GMT
President Macron is in Strasbourg tonight, visiting the Christmas markets and not being yelled at by an irate crowd for once. Meanwhile, a fourth person died and another wounded person is brain dead.
Some of the 'yellow vest' people are still claiming that it is all a government conspiracy, just to take media attention away from their cause.
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Post by whatagain on Dec 14, 2018 20:23:22 GMT
Yeah, I eard it. seems some yellow vests don't need to be shot to be braindead.
Jeez. I hesitate between Egotistical, simply Stupid or just adepts of plotting theories. Either way : morons.
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Post by bixaorellana on Dec 15, 2018 1:00:06 GMT
Some of the 'yellow vest' people are still claiming that it is all a government conspiracy, just to take media attention away from their cause. For a bunch of people who want understanding and empathy for their cause, they don't seem to have any to give to those recent victims of violence. Jerks.
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Post by lagatta on Dec 15, 2018 12:55:08 GMT
Whatever one thinks of Macron, he would be accused of being insensitive and cowardly if he didn't show up after a terror attack at a Christmas Market.
The response to this attack was muted, in a good way I thought. Not in the sense of downplaying the violent deaths and woundings of people taking part in peaceful activities, but pretty much saying that this guy was a shitty little thug who happened to "find God" as an excuse for committing more violence. That has been the portrait of many of the recent ones, while Daesh falls over itself to extol him as some kind of brave warrior.
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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 17, 2018 7:04:58 GMT
Two interesting things have emerged from the current political situation in France.
Journalists have been interviewing and analyzing a lot of the yellow vest people, and it appears that this 'silent majority' revolt is the most important thing that has ever happened in their lives. They always felt powerless and ignored in the past, and now they have changed the country. Some of them who never watched the news and now watching the news, even though they don't like a lot of the things that are said. "Can you imagine? I haven't done a crossword puzzle in two weeks!" They finally have something in their lives. Naturally, they are also major victims of fake news and get caught up in mobs, but this can be compared to the Nuit debout movement a couple of years ago when young people occupied the Place de la République for several weeks to debate about changing society all night. The main difference is the age group involved. These people who are 40 or 50 or 60 years old basically never did anything with their lives, and the frustration just kept building. What will happen now? Too soon to be sure...
The other interesting thing is that even though Macron has reached a low point in the opinion polls (23%), if the same presidential election were held right now, Macron would actually get more votes than before. This is because all of the traditional political parties are continuing to decline and have absolutely nothing to offer. The RN (formerly FN) of Marine Le Pen has also gained a few points, but she could still not win the second round of the election.
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