Israel - Hamas War

[lugg]

Apologies if I have missed a thread elsewhere

This is just so terrible and I do not understand why Hamas launched the offensive given the shift in public ( western) opinion about Israel. Now it has swung right back from what I read. Whatever the death and suffering on both sides is unbearable to watch / read about.

[htmb]

Unbearable is a good descriptive word for it. Unimaginable, too.

[lugg]

The news continues to be sickening.

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/11/hamas-and-israel-at-war-what-we-know-on-day-5

[whatagain]

Would it be too much of a shortcut to say that Hamas is to the Palestinians like SS to Germany ?

I am not a fan of Israel when it comes to Palestinia but Hamas looks like a bunch of sick terroeist butchers.

[htmb]

That’s my view, as well.

[mickthecactus]

Hamas are no better than Isis and should receive the same fate.

[bjd]

I find that treating the entire population of the Gaza Strip as Hamas militants (or "terrorists" as they are systematically being called by Israel and much of the media) is unjustified and wrong. Depriving over 2 million people of water, food, medicine and electricity and fuel is immoral. And telling them to "evacuate" is surreal. Where are they supposed to go? They have been locked into a strip of land 25 x 5 km for years, but crossings into Egypt and Israel blocked. On the news I saw an Israeli general calling the Palestinians "animals" that they were going to eliminate.

Of course the Hamas militants acted like butchers, killing and kidnapping Israeli civilians, but surely not everybody in Gaza supported them. Hamas has put an end to what little remained of the Israeli peace movement, has united the population behind Netanyahu and his ultra-right wing government. I wonder what their objective was.

[whatagain]

I fully support what you say.

[fumobici]

Hamas seems to have deliberately created a situation where Israel will have essentially no choice but to commit what will likely be war crimes e.g. built a cynical trap for Israel. Of course, one could well argue that Israel created the situation/trap that created the pre-existing situation as well...

I'm pretty certain that anyone expressing unreserved support for either Israel or Hamas has also fallen into a similar cynical trap and I've seen literally nobody put forward any practical and realistic solutions on what either side could do at this point that would change the course of the conflict while addressing either side's legitimate concerns. This may be a case where there are no satisfactory solutions, where the lack of those is planned and deliberate, and no just solution is evident because no just solution exists.

Some problems simply have no solutions, this may well be one of them. Whatever new hell awaits the region may be literally inevitable.

[whatagain]

The victims in the long term are the Palestinians.
They have no life and no hope.

Maybe when/if Hamas is fully destroyed …

[kerouac2]

The Israelis have just created a larger version of the Warsaw ghetto.

[mickthecactus]

Good analogy.

[bixaorellana]

Oct 13, 2023 6:38:39 GMT bjd said:

I find that treating the entire population of the Gaza Strip as Hamas militants (or "terrorists" as they are systematically being called by Israel and much of the media) is unjustified and wrong. Depriving over 2 million people of water, food, medicine and electricity and fuel is immoral. And telling them to "evacuate" is surreal. Where are they supposed to go? They have been locked into a strip of land 25 x 5 km for years, but crossings into Egypt and Israel blocked. On the news I saw an Israeli general calling the Palestinians "animals" that they were going to eliminate.

Of course the Hamas militants acted like butchers, killing and kidnapping Israeli civilians, but surely not everybody in Gaza supported them. Hamas has put an end to what little remained of the Israeli peace movement, has united the population behind Netanyahu and his ultra-right wing government. I wonder what their objective was.

I agree with every word of your well-reasoned, well-stated overview, Bjd.

The United Nations and international aid and rights groups called Israel’s directive unworkable or unlawful, and urged it to rescind the evacuation. A U.N. spokesman, Stéphane Dujarric, said in a statement that the evacuation could not be conducted “without devastating humanitarian consequences,” and “could transform what is already a tragedy into a calamitous situation. source

Of course, even as those calls for some sanity go out, the US is promising Israel all the arms, etc. it needs to carry out its overkill war plan.

[mossie]

I have little sympathy for either side, after all they are both one of the 'twelve tribes of Israel'. In other words 'wogs', that is they will lie ,cheat and rob you with impunity. However it must be remembered that the occupants of the Gaza Strip are known as Palestinians, and were refugees from a country called Paleastine, from which they were brutally evicted by Jews who renamed the country Israel.

[lugg]

I also agree with your response Bjd and Fumobici share the same query ? Just why / what was the objective ?

[htmb]

I just cannot imagine. What horror for all involved. I’ve taken to avoiding the television. The news is so painful to watch, I cannot fathom being in the middle of this hell.

[whatagain]

A hospital was bombed. It creates indignation.
Apparently killing people on the street or in their homes is ok but not in hospitals.
Or suddenly someone me guys just realise bombs kill.

[kerouac2]

I think it's interesting how the Israeli reaction is identical to the Russian reaction when they do things like that in Ukraine. "We didn't do anything. They did it to themselves."

[onlyMark]

I wonder if the Israeli evidence is fabricated then? I'm on the fence because I wouldn't put it past either of the participants.

[kerouac2]

I suspect that the Israeli version will turn out to be correct, but they were far too quick to deny their implication without evidence.

[mickthecactus]

I was just flicking round the news channels and on an Indian channel it says-

“Modi says those involved should be held responsible “

You don’t say.

How many people is he responsible for?

[bixaorellana]

Oct 14, 2023 19:58:41 GMT htmb said:

What horror for all involved. I’ve taken to avoiding the television.

Amen to that. I get my news from newspapers, so open the front pages with one eye closed.

Oct 18, 2023 18:07:49 GMT onlyMark said:

I wonder if the Israeli evidence is fabricated then? I'm on the fence because I wouldn't put it past either of the participants.

Yep!

[onlyMark]

Oct 18, 2023 19:09:15 GMT kerouac2 said:

I suspect that the Israeli version will turn out to be correct, but they were far too quick to deny their implication without evidence.

But then someone on a forum would criticise them for being to slow to deny it or not comment if they were waiting for the evidence to be gathered.

[bixaorellana]

Re: which version is correct -- there is an article by David Leonhardt in the NYTimes newsletter The Morning" today about what the writer calls "the Trudeau problem". An excerpt:

Last month, Justin Trudeau, Canada’s prime minister, suggested that Indian government agents had helped murder a Canadian citizen near Vancouver in a political attack. ...
On Sept. 18, Trudeau delivered a speech from the floor of the Canadian Parliament in which he talked about “credible allegations of a potential link” between India’s government and the shooting of a Sikh nationalist. Trudeau cited Canadian intelligence agencies.
But he offered no evidence that outsiders could evaluate on their own — no photographs, no video, no financial transactions, no narrative of the events leading up to the shooting.
Indian government officials strongly denied the allegation, and almost everybody else was left uncertain about what had happened. Other governments — including Canadian allies like the U.S. — did not publicly support Canada or criticize India. ...
The aftermath of the Gaza explosion has been different in some important ways. Intelligence agencies released information much more quickly than usual, hoping to avoid what you might call the Trudeau problem. But they have not avoided it — because they did not release the kind of information, like satellite images or videos, likely to clear up confusion and sway undecided people who are open to empirical evidence.
There are reasons that officials are hesitant to do so. Releasing information can expose its source, like a spy or a hidden surveillance camera. Yet the stakes seem high enough that the side that’s telling the truth could gain a huge diplomatic advantage through transparency.

The rest of the article cites such information which has already been in the news -- allegations of both sides, etc.

But in other news, this is something that is both saddening and refreshing. The headline is linked to one of those "gift articles" NYTimes allows me that are hardly every openable. It's the best of the lot, but at least the other links can be read by anyone.

State Department Official Resigns Over Arms Transfers to Israel

www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/19/state-department-official-resigns-over-bidens-handling-of-israel-gaza-war

www.axios.com/2023/10/19/us-state-department-official-resigns-israel-military-aid

[cheerypeabrain]

My OH says (therefore it must be so) that all the major powers will have spy satellites pointed at Gaza, so they should be able to prove who was responsible for the hospital incident. I don't know if that's so but as most of the western leaders are lining up behind Israel it seems likely that their version will be accepted.

2 hostages, US citizens have been released but Israel rejected Hamas's offer to release 2 more..(presumably to try to delay a ground invasion by israeli forces). The Palestinian people unable to flee must be in despair.

[kerouac2]

The trucks from Egypt finally brought in enough food and water for 100,000 people yesterday. Too bad the population is 2.2 million.

[onlyMark]

Better than a slap in the face with a wet kipper.

[kerouac2]

France is the European country that had the most citizens killed during the attack by Hamas -- 35 dead and 8 still missing. Of course most of them were dual nationals. The United States lost 33 and Thailand lost 31. While I feel bad for everyone involved, I feel it was particularly unfair for the Thais who were just expat farm workers and not established in Israel for ideological or religious reasons.

[biddy]

Don't forget the Filipina care giver who was also kidnapped by Hamas. Talk about 'being in the wrong place at the wrong time'.

[bixaorellana]

This is from three minutes ago (Weds. Nov. 1) in my Breaking News advisories from NYTimes:

Some Dual Nationals and Injured Palestinians Cross to Egypt
The Gaza border opened for the first such crossings since the war began, and state-owned TV showed families arriving in Egypt. Hundreds of people were expected to leave Gaza on Wednesday, officials said.

It includes a live video of a very orderly crowd entering the gate on the Gaza side of the Rafa crossing with Egypt, heading toward the border checkpoints.

Further:
ome people with dual nationalities and seriously injured Palestinians arrived in Egypt on Wednesday, Egyptian state-owned TV said, as the Gaza border opened for the first such crossings since the start of the war between Hamas and Israel.

Three critically injured people from Gaza arrived at an Egyptian hospital near the border, a hospital official said. And Egyptian state TV showed what it said was a group of foreign or dual nationals carrying luggage on the Egyptian side of the Rafah border crossing, where they were to have documents checked.

The crossings came after a deal negotiated late Tuesday among Israel, Egypt, Hamas, the United States and Qatar. Egypt was set to receive hundreds of people on Wednesday, according to Western diplomats in Cairo and Jerusalem and the Gaza authorities.

The Rafah crossing has been the focus of heated international negotiations as the only possible escape route, as well as the only entry point for relief supplies