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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2009 19:14:35 GMT
Racist, how? The British are a mixture of different races. Race had nothing to do with it.
And no I didn't correct them, they were commenting on what they saw first hand, so how could I deny that and tell them it wasn't so?
Like I said it was quite a rough area, one that I was used to, but they weren't. And I'd be lying if I said that only that area is like that, because it isn't. Many inner cities have the same problems, perhaps in the posh country side you might see a different scene, I dunno.
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Post by gyro on May 24, 2009 19:17:54 GMT
Many inner cities in MANY OTHER countries have the same problems too ...
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Post by tillystar on May 24, 2009 19:18:54 GMT
Erm, isn't racism a belief that all members of a racial group are the same, behave the same, have the same traits?
OK England is made up of many different racial groups but really its the same thought process, just because its not being applied to a distinct race doesn't make it OK.
And certainly, if my kid met a a group of Indians that were rude and agressive and told me they couldn't beleive how rude and aggressive Indians are, I woud certainly put them straight on their thought process.
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Post by rikita on May 24, 2009 19:19:50 GMT
i would guess who gets most stereotyped varies depending who you talk to.
funny, that reminds me how a lot of romanians kept complaining to me how people from "the west" would think so badly of them and how in fact it was the gypsies' fault, as they were giving them a bad name. i kept trying to tell them that most people here know so little about them you couldn't even call it bad stereotypes, as they barely know where the country is...
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2009 19:21:00 GMT
I'd just like to add that while there, a young South Indian man was murdered by skin heads about 10 miles from where I lived. The police did get the thugs and they were arrested. Also you just had to walk down the main street to see Indian take-aways and corner stores with smashed in windows by yobos.
A group of white racists teenagers beat up two turbaned little boys of 11 and 12 while they played outside of their school after if was closed for the day. I want to carry on, but right now I don't have the time....
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Post by gyro on May 24, 2009 19:23:08 GMT
Yes yes, we KNOW you said it was a rough area, but again, what is the point of that ? It still doesn't explain or justify ignorant or simplistic generalisations.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2009 19:23:51 GMT
And certainly, if my kid met a a group of Indians that were rude and agressive and told me they couldn't beleive how rude and aggressive Indians are, I woud certainly put them straight on their thought process.
The English are people who live in England are they not? Some are white, some are not. So no they were not commenting on a certain racial group, but just generally wondering why the people of that area didn't seem to care about their environment.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2009 19:27:19 GMT
Yes yes, we KNOW you said it was a rough area, but again, what is the point of that ? It still doesn't explain or justify ignorant or simplistic generalisations. These are 5 and 9 year olds you are talking about. They commented on what they saw first hand. I'm not going to correct a kid for being honest, besides they were and are correct. |
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Post by gyro on May 24, 2009 19:27:44 GMT
I heard that there was an English person that lived in America once. I don't know if it's true, mind.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2009 19:29:09 GMT
But most of them live in England. As most Americans live in America.
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Post by gyro on May 24, 2009 19:29:57 GMT
I don't understand that. My point was that saying The English is wrong. Saying The People On The Estate Where I Used To Live would be correct, and fair enough.
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Post by tillystar on May 24, 2009 19:31:36 GMT
Sorry, you said "And they couldn't believe how the English didn't seem to care about their own country and environment", maybe you meant the people in your area but you didn't write that here so I understood they were claiming all English people were like that based on their experience.
I get your point about England being made up of different races, but as I said its still too dangerously close to a racism to me: generalising, prejudice, sterotyping - all that kind of ignorant thinking.
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Post by tillystar on May 24, 2009 19:35:09 GMT
Anyhow, I've no more time for all this. I am off for a few lagers and a curry and off to smash up some bus stops.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2009 19:36:00 GMT
Oh Gyro, you are nit picking now. It was the estate I lived in, but it wasn't only the estate unfortunately. It was many towns around and beyond. I can understand that you don't like anything negative said about the country that you live in, but some facts have to be faced.
How did Britain (O.K. maybe not all of Britain), get to this point? I grew up there and to me it's sad that so many areas are like this now. There are some things in the UK that I really like, nothing is ever black and white entirely.
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Post by gyro on May 24, 2009 19:36:18 GMT
Don't forget to put your expenses claim in tomorrow, for them Doc Martens that'll be covered in blood and need cleaning .....
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2009 19:38:42 GMT
Anyhow, I've no more time for all this. I am off for a few lagers and a curry and off to smash up some bus stops. You're taking this too personally Tilly. My kids didn't know anything about Racism, although unfortunately they learned about it for the first time in the school system there. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2009 19:40:33 GMT
Don't forget to put your expenses claim in tomorrow, for them Doc Martens that'll be covered in blood and need cleaning ..... Do you think that's funny? You wouldn't if you were the parent of that poor 21 year old South Indian man that was murdered. |
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Post by gyro on May 24, 2009 19:42:10 GMT
Nit picking ? What a joke. You agree with or make sweeping generalisations and you call me disagreeing with it nit picking ?
I think YOU need to face up to facts, my dear. Particularly the one called Truth, and maybe another labelled Objective ...
Yes, of course the UK has these problems, as does pretty much every other society in the world, and it certainly HAS gotten worse in say, the last fifty years across the board (ie. not just England). The only point I'm making is the generic attitude towards this which is misleading and downright wrong. If I said, for example, that The Indians are lazy, how would you or somebody else react ?
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Post by gyro on May 24, 2009 19:43:48 GMT
Deyana, I wasn't laughing at that person in my post at 44, no. Although I think it's a tad ironic how you accuse Tilly of taking things too personally, in all fairness.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2009 19:46:41 GMT
I have to go. You are the one not willing face some home truths. I'm not going to repeat myself, I can't be bothered, you will think what you want to think no matter how blinkered.
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Post by gyro on May 24, 2009 19:52:07 GMT
Aah, bless.
I'm perfectly accepting of 'home truths', and indeed know that there are some shit people and bad areas of this country. But if you want to try and say that the whole place is like it, and no other country faces many of the same issues or worse, then you have an extremely ignorant view of life.
Still, once again your irony skills are WAAAAAY up there labelling somebody else as 'blinkered' ....
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Post by tillystar on May 24, 2009 19:55:47 GMT
I am not taking it personally Deyana, I was trying to change the conversation a little. I am sorry that your kids experienced racism, I really am it breaks my heart to think of kids being upset for any reason whatsoever and racism truely dsgusts me.
That is why what you are saying is difficult for me, not on a personal basis but because I really truely believe that the type of thinking you are showing is very dangerous. You don't need to know the definition of racism to display that way of thinking; racism or sexism or any other type of -ism isn't necessarily conscious.
I am not saying your boys are racist at all, I was just genuinely surprised at that comment about all English going unchecked. I know I would have been/was corrected and told about the dangers of thinking like that at a very young age. Maybe I have misunderstood and blown the point out of proportion anyhow.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2009 3:02:14 GMT
Again Tilly, my kids did not associate the word 'English' as a racist word. Infact they had no idea, at the time, was racism was. They just saw the tons of rubbish on the floor everywhere and where probably wondering what the heck? I won't even get started on the damaged fences and buildings.
And you mention 'Indians' because? Is it because you know I am Indian and so my kids are, and so they must have been trying to be racist to white people? hmm... That's a big assumption.
So when is it O.K. to address the people of England as English without being offensive? Can a white person say 'the English don't care about their own environment'? Or would you find that offensive/racist as well? Because I have heard many white English people say that and worse. Just wondering....
I am sorry that your kids experienced racism, I really am it breaks my heart to think of kids being upset for any reason whatsoever and racism truely dsgusts me.
It disgusts me too, I'm glad that you can see other peoples point of view Tilly. I think every white person and their kids should become brown or black for one day or a week and see how they they feel about racism after that. Being called a name they don't like would be the last of their worries.
My kids didn't have too many problems when in the England, maybe because it's not that easy to tell they are Indian, as they are bi-racial. Not only that but their dad is a local from there and most people know him.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2009 3:12:10 GMT
not on a personal basis but because I really truely believe that the type of thinking you are showing is very dangerous. You don't need to know the definition of racism to display that way of thinking; racism or sexism or any other type of -ism isn't necessarily conscious.
Now you've lost me. What exactly have a said that is 'very dangerous'? My way of thinking is dangerous? You have no idea what I think or do not think. Is it because I agreed that there was too much rubbish on the floor? The only way the rubbish comment could be dangerous is if I said it to a racist white person and they tired to attack me for it.
Excuse me, but I am one of the least racist people you could get to meet. btw, OP of this thread is white, is she being racist towards white people too, simply by starting this thread?
Sorry, but I don't get you Tilly, apart from the fact that you took a sentence that a five year old said, and turned it into something dark and race related when it has nothing to do with that. It makes me wonder just where you are coming from....and what you really think of people of colour in your country.
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Post by gyro on May 25, 2009 5:38:27 GMT
"And you mention 'Indians' because? Is it because you know I am Indian and so my kids are, and so they must have been trying to be racist to white people? hmm... That's a big assumption. "
That's a really odd response, and a MASSSIVE - not to mention very offensice - assumption from you. No, I mentioned Indians as an example, and nothing more; it's another example of a pathetic nationality based generalisation/cliche. You seem to be continually missing the point.
"So when is it O.K. to address the people of England as English without being offensive? Can a white person say 'the English don't care about their own environment'? Or would you find that offensive/racist as well? Because I have heard many white English people say that and worse. Just wondering...."
It is absolutely fine for ANYBODY to call the English The English, the point is (and quite why Tilly and myself have to repeat this many many times, and thus far still to no avail) that saying a blanket statement like "The English ...etc etc." is wrong because it is stating/implying that EVERY English person is like that.
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Post by tillystar on May 25, 2009 8:21:45 GMT
OK, now I am taking this very personally. I find that very offensive, just because you are unable to understand a simple point you imply I have issues with people of colour. I cannot see your logic there at all or how you came up with that bizarre conclusion. I am leaving this discussion now as you clearly can't get my point and never will.
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Post by gyro on May 25, 2009 8:27:40 GMT
It would appear Deyana has too many 'issues' to be able to hold a decent conversation. Which is a shame.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2009 9:52:47 GMT
The only 'issue' I have here is that you and Tilly are getting very uptight about a simple statement that a kid made. And Tilly you took this personally from the beginning, and I found you talking about Indians and adding race into this very bizarre too. And I stand by everything that I said.
And to top it all you made the following very bizarre statement. Even after I told you I am not a racist in way or form and neither are my kids. And I find you trying to imply that very offensive too. And it made me wonder why the heck you would even bring race it to this.
not on a personal basis but because I really truely believe that the type of thinking you are showing is very dangerous. You don't need to know the definition of racism to display that way of thinking; racism or sexism or any other type of -ism isn't necessarily conscious.
So you are saying that I am unconscionably being racist because I said there was so much rubbish in England? That's laughable, you need to read back on my many replies to this on this thread. You keep bringing race into this conversation over and over again, and frankly seem a quite obsessed with it. Again I wonder why?
Gyro save your mind reading for someone else, I'm not interested. Most of the time I can't even be bothered to read through your posts, no matter who you are talking to, it usually the same old, same old, gets boring after a while..
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Post by bixaorellana on May 25, 2009 14:50:52 GMT
My comment, for what it's worth ~~
It would be good if discussions such as this didn't get personal.
They do get personal because it's hard not to take any slur, or anything that we take as a slur, to ones own country or family to heart.
This thread started out because of a link to an article about people behaving badly in Cardiff. This was accepted as accurate by some readers and as unfair characterization by others.
As far as characterization goes, it did not change my personal impression of Britain or the British one bit. I've never been to Britain, but basing my impressions on British people I know, I'd say it's as immensely varied as any country can be. I certainly know of towns in the US that have given themselves over to catering to the lost weekend set, such as places that are known as spring break meccas. What that can do to a town is unfortunate, but it hardly makes a statement about the entire country.
However, my point is that members of a forum such as this should be more cognizant of the unfairness and rudeness of casual characterizations of any nationality, race, ethnic group, or religion.
Those kinds of slur tossed around lower the general tone and can cause immense bad feeling. Recently on another thread I read some "clever" remarks about Catholicism which made my blood boil. It did not make the offenders seem more intellectual -- rather the opposite -- simply made me despise them for their horrible manners and for insulting my entire family. Had the remarks been about any other religion I would not have felt personally insulted, but would have felt the same disapproval. Then of course I have to ask myself if I've aired opinions that may have offended others in the same way.
And I think my gut response to the religious remarks is the gut response that is going on in this thread.
The conversation started out normally -- a link posted with the comment "how low can we go?" The response was an objection to the "we", objecting to an entire country being tarred with one brush. This spawned some interesting and reasonable discussion.
However, the moment it seemed that England and the English were being viewed as stereotypes, the discussion became emotionally heated.
I'd say we're all here because we're curious about and interested in the world at large and all of its peoples. This forum would be totally boring if we were all from the same background. The kind of discussion created by the OP was interesting right up to the point where feelings could be hurt or insult taken.
As I said, just my take on this -- take it or leave it.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2009 15:51:47 GMT
I too resented the Catholic remarks. I decided not to remark on it as somehow it seems some things are acceptable and others not. One thing I do know is ,I have decided I shouldn't have to develop a "thick skin" when I come on here. I try and avoid the remarks that offend.
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