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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 17:51:31 GMT
The subject came up on the 'older mothers' thread today, and it made me wonder. Why do some people decide to get married and yet others are happy just living together without the ceremony/certificate? I'm sure there must be many reasons/arguments for both.
Does it depend on where we live? Perhaps the opposites being countries like India, (where everyone is expected to get married), and France, where being unwed is not looked on negatively by most.
Opinions on this subject most welcome.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 18:27:29 GMT
As I said on the other thread, except for the truly religious who think that marriage is an important validation of their relationship, it is of little importance in France other than for the fiscal advantages. Since there are other ways to get those advantages, if so many people are still getting married, I would say that it is more to please the family -- parents and grandparents -- than to satisfy one's own needs.
Younger generations are very much aware that most modern marriages do not last very long, so why bother? It just complicates their lives when they want to get out of it.
Personally, I think that it is a shame that things have reached this point, but I am well aware that society has changed permanently and that it is better to accept this aspect of life than to resist it.
As bjd pointed out, one of the presidential candidates in the last French elections was the unmarried mother of 4, and this had little or no influence on how people voted. She got 47% of the vote in any case.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 18:45:46 GMT
The following statistics might of interest, and certainly support what you said about France, Kerouac: www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_mar_rat-people-marriage-rateClick on the list on the left to get the results of the following also: these world stats: * Divorce rate * Age at first marriage for women * Age at first marriage for men * Divorces per 100 marriages |
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Post by fumobici on Sept 18, 2009 19:32:14 GMT
Marriage seems to me to be an invitation to both organized religion and government and legal bureaucracy to insert themselves into one's personal life. Plus the actual ceremony and surrounding hoopla sometimes strikes me as perhaps self absorbed and narcissistic, never mind the crass and frequently tasteless commercialization of it. It has essentially become an industrial process now with all the tens of thousands spent on a typical example. But as always, chacun à son goût.
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Post by lagatta on Sept 18, 2009 22:19:48 GMT
Here in Québec, our society a couple of decades ago was dominated by an extremely regressive Catholic Church (and this influenced people of whatever faith). Women were encouraged to have huge famlies, to shore up the survival of the French-Canadian nation, as it was called back then. I don't know whether a majority of friends my age (50s) never married, but certainly a great many of us never did.
I do agree with kerouac that it is sad in a way that so many of our unions (legally-recognised or not) are so short-lived, because the problems and challenges always remain pretty much the same.
But I can't imagine getting (legally) married unless it is for immigration purposes - I'm not referring to fraudulent marriage, but if it is necessary to live together when we are of different nationalities.
This is very different, of course, in other societies. Even in some other Canadian provinces, it can be difficult for non-married couples to obtain important things like power of attorney and custodianship.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2009 0:50:36 GMT
Marriage seems to me to be an invitation to both organized religion and government and legal bureaucracy to insert themselves into one's personal life. Plus the actual ceremony and surrounding hoopla sometimes strikes me as perhaps self absorbed and narcissistic, never mind the crass and frequently tasteless commercialization of it. It has essentially become an industrial process now with all the tens of thousands spent on a typical example. But as always, chacun à son goût. I agree, well said. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2009 0:52:02 GMT
As I said on the other thread, except for the truly religious who think that marriage is an important validation of their relationship, it is of little importance in France other than for the fiscal advantages. Since there are other ways to get those advantages, if so many people are still getting married, I would say that it is more to please the family -- parents and grandparents -- than to satisfy one's own needs. Younger generations are very much aware that most modern marriages do not last very long, so why bother? It just complicates their lives when they want to get out of it. As bjd pointed out, one of the presidential candidates in the last French elections was the unmarried mother of 4, and this had little or no influence on how people voted. She got 47% of the vote in any case. Good points there, K. Time perhaps, for other countries to catch up on this. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2009 0:56:47 GMT
Here in Québec, our society a couple of decades ago was dominated by an extremely regressive Catholic Church (and this influenced people of whatever faith). Women were encouraged to have huge famlies, to shore up the survival of the French-Canadian nation, as it was called back then. I don't know whether a majority of friends my age (50s) never married, but certainly a great many of us never did. . Lagatta, you don't need to be married here in Canada for immigration purposes. And yes, having been married to a French Canadian some years back, I know all about the huge families and all that comes with that, including in some cases, dire poverty. No wonder many women chose never to get married in the first place. |
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Post by lagatta on Sept 19, 2009 1:49:48 GMT
Here no. I know that. As a matter of fact a lesbian friend was able to immigrate here without legally marrying her female partner. No, it is if I move to significant other's country. Not all countries, even in the "West" are so emancipated.
And obviously I don't have to be married in Canada, as I was born a Canadian citizen!
My mum only had two children, but two of her siblings had 12 and 14 respectively. Don't think any of their kids have more than two, or perhaps 3. Many have one or none.
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Post by bjd on Sept 19, 2009 7:42:39 GMT
I don't know if it's a general trend, but from my tiny statistical sample, I get the impression that marriage is making a bit of a comeback. Among my kids's friends - all in their mid-to-late 20s -- lots of them have got married in the past few years. There are only a few that have a PACS (legal relationship) -- the rest have opted for marriage. Sometimes not immediately -- for example, they live together for a while first -- but then they marry.
Even the last time I went to have my hair cut, the hairdresser, a woman in her 40s, told me she and her husband had decided to have a big party and a church a wedding, with their kids -- one 10, the other 6 -- accompanying the respective opposite-sex parent down the church aisle.
My son got married a month ago. I don't know how the actual decision was made, but since they plan to travel, it just makes things simpler and being legal certainly made it easier for her to get permanent residence status in Canada.
Despite divorce statistics, I think it's rather nice that young people are still optimistic that their marriage and relationships will work.
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Post by tillystar on Sept 19, 2009 12:43:20 GMT
In my experience it seems to be making a comeback too. I am married, rare in friends of our age group and slightly older, but younger friends and family are all doing it. I didn't want to get married for all the reasons that fumobico mentioned. I saw marriage as a very negative thing and a big symbol of oppression to women. I had no interest in it at all. Although I am not religious I think that one aspect of the big religious celebrations (baptisms, weddings etc) that is important is "the party", the sharing of the occasions, getting together and celebrating and the marking the passing of life. I love this side of the traditions and think it is sad they are being lost. We knew we wanted to work at being together forever and didn't need a piece of paper to do this, but we spoke about the above and decided based on that we wanted to get married. We wanted to bring the people we care about together for a really special day and celebration of our love. Not the big commercial wedding idea, not necessarily expensive but a day full of happiness and smiles. Of course we didn't have to get married to do this, but we wanted to. I am glad we did that and in the process we redefined what marriage meant to us, and really it is only us that matters in making it work  Like France, here in the UK it is not seen as a negative thing to be unmarried, few people care at all. I think that this is part of the reason that marriage is making a comeback here,; because the institution has been broken down and become almost irrelevant, young people are able to redefine what it means to them and almost reinvent it in a much more positive way. Saying all that, I know that it is still seen by many people as I used to see it and completely understand why many people would choose not to get married. |
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Post by hwinpp on Sept 21, 2009 7:50:43 GMT
Marriage seems to me to be an invitation to both organized religion and government and legal bureaucracy to insert themselves into one's personal life. Plus the actual ceremony and surrounding hoopla sometimes strikes me as perhaps self absorbed and narcissistic, never mind the crass and frequently tasteless commercialization of it. It has essentially become an industrial process now with all the tens of thousands spent on a typical example. But as always, chacun à son goût. I agree, well said. I'm not so sure about that. I think it's as old as humanity, from an age where taxes and financial advantages counted less and marriage was the most basic cement of functioning societies. |
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Post by lola on Sept 22, 2009 0:34:47 GMT
I'm with hwinpp.
If people wouldn't be having children, then sure it's a piece of paper. The idealistic fluid concept of family, where everyone just loves and takes care of everyone else, turned out to be one of the 70's counterculture's failed experiments IMO. It's not possible to treat everyone in the world like family; you can really only care deeply for so many people.
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Post by lagatta on Sept 22, 2009 0:59:16 GMT
That is for sure, lola, but those people aren't necessarily blood relatives or people one is married to or has regular sex with. I was taking homemade soup to a sick friend. She is a lesbian; I am a straight woman so obviously no such relation there, but there is a very important relationship.
But as you say, one thing we do have in common is absolutely no desire when younger to have had children, and no regrets whatsoever not to have done so.
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Post by lola on Sept 22, 2009 1:17:03 GMT
Yes, for sure, lagatta.
Also, sometimes the person one is married to is a pill, too, that for two cents one would give the old heave-ho.
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Post by rikita on Sept 29, 2009 22:29:04 GMT
well i like the idea of getting married one day, though it isn#t the most important thing for me. i guess i like the idea for tradition's sake, and because it seems a nice symbol and all... of course, afaik there are also still some advantages tax wise and when children are involved, but of course i know from my parents divorce that if the relationship ends things can get pretty complicated (but i guess if you aren't married but have kids and a house together, it would be complicated to)...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2009 13:51:45 GMT
When kids are involved, it's all complicated, whether you are married or not. Not much difference in that respect.
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Post by livaco on Oct 2, 2009 21:26:06 GMT
I got married at a pretty young age (20!) for immigration reasons. (He: UK citizen -- Me: US citizen)
I don't know if we would have gotten married if we had been able to live together without it. But that said, I am glad now that we did. I think it changed things more than I thought it would. It involved society, our families, and yes, even the government, in our relationship in a way that I was surprised to find out that I liked. It made it seem somehow more serious, and made me a part of something that people have been doing since ancient times. Like I said I was surprised to find that I felt that way; I didn't think of myself as a particularly traditional person.
There were times early in our marriage that I think the fact that we were married may have kept us together. We couldn't just move out and apart. It would have involved legalities. And divorce would have been embarassing to me in my family. So we just stayed together. But then the relationship got better and better. And now it's been great for many years in its own unique way. :-)
So it worked out for me. Can't speak for anyone else obviously. And I think it's a travesty that many gay people can't get married.
And I agree that any relationship where kids are involved is complicated no matter what. We had our son seven years into our marriage and it changed things to a completely new level.
Btw, we've been married 23 years now...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2009 4:30:27 GMT
I think your marriage was the way marriage was originally intended to be, livaco, but it just doesn't work that way for lots of people now. The framework can help to stablize things when they get rocky, just so long as it doesn't turn into a prison, like up until the second half of the last century.
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Post by happytraveller on Oct 3, 2009 8:12:47 GMT
I also got married because of immigrant reasons. I quite enjoy to be married I have to admit, I would not want it any other way. Only negative point is we pay more taxes as a married couple. Stupid law...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2009 10:44:53 GMT
I'm considering divorce this a.m. because my husband "forgot" to deal with the hot water heater before going out of town. Maybe the cold shower will work in his favor.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2009 13:04:47 GMT
;D
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Post by traveler63 on Oct 3, 2009 18:25:52 GMT
Well, I have read all of your posts. Marriage is a commitment to each other. It is the bond that ties two people together and makes the relationship different. Two people can commit to live together without marriage however the committment is different because there are no vows to consider. You are not pledging anything. I think many marriages fail because there is an attitude of "If it doesn't work out we can always get a divorce" Is marriage hard, you bet, do you feel sometimes that you are not understood, that your partner is selfish, doesn't get it, takes advantage, yes. However, there are many moments, where, having someone to just be there, someone you know that you can count on for the long haul, just say everything will be ok, even when you don't think so, is key to the relationship. You can have many great moments, you don't always have couples that have kids, we didn't. So, for my vote, marriage isn't for everyone, I don''t think that it stifles women, if you are truthful and pick a partner that closely fits you and your thinking. One huge mistake I think women make is they think can change a man and they will be sorely disappointed. It will never happen. You need to to get beyond all of the physical and find out how the person lives. It's the day to day things that cause problems. You need to pick your fights and laugh off the small stuff. Our 40th anniversary was August 16th.
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Post by auntieannie on Oct 3, 2009 19:24:13 GMT
I personally don't want and don't need to be married at the moment. My wonderful boyfriend and myself both feel it wouldn't bring anything into our relationship currently.
However, I must say that I noticed that when my cousin married her boyfriend of 11 years a few years ago, it was like a light switched itself on in her. She was glowing from inside.
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Post by palesa on Oct 4, 2009 15:50:23 GMT
However, I must say that I noticed that when my cousin married her boyfriend of 11 years a few years ago, it was like a light switched itself on in her. She was glowing from inside. That is what is was like for Brian and I. It was an honour to be his wife. Neither of us expected much, we had lived together for a long time before we got married, but the next day over breakfast we both commented on how different it felt for both of us. One of the main reasons that we got married was because marriage (in SA) protects the rights of both spouses in divorce and death. We also had a very small, inexpensive, intimate wedding and blew a huge amount of money on a 5 week honeymoon. |
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Post by auntieannie on Oct 4, 2009 15:53:45 GMT
I think that's how it should be, Palesa. (small inexpensive, intimate wedding and a nice honeymoon).  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2009 6:52:28 GMT
I confess that I have only attended one fancy wedding in my life, and that one time was enough. The only reason I went was because it was in Singapore, so it had the attraction of being a Chinese wedding.
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Post by rikita on Oct 6, 2009 19:07:29 GMT
happytraveler - you pay more taxes for being a married couple? that is strange... i think here it is the other way around, you pay less taxes if you are a married couple (but then i don't know the exact details as i have never been married)...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2009 23:26:01 GMT
I've seen too many crappy marriages. Waayy to0 many. And very, very few happy ones, or at least seem half way happy to an outsider. Nearly all my school friends that got married young are now divorced, actually, I can't think of any that are still with their original husbands/wives anymore...
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Post by bjd on Oct 7, 2009 8:09:00 GMT
This is an interesting thread -- those who have been or remain happily married are for it, those who are divorced are against.
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