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Post by bjd on Aug 30, 2010 11:07:54 GMT
I removed my name from the list last night and it seems to have worked (using Linux and Mozilla).
However, I would prefer to have a system into which we can "opt it", if we wish, rather than one where we can opt out. It would in fact be interesting to see how many people would choose to have their movements followed.
I had found the feature annoying, but hadn't realized at first that I could remove my name.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2010 11:26:25 GMT
Once people have opted out, I certainly do not understand why they would continue to make the effort to scroll down to the bottom page to continue looking unless they are not being honest about what people should or should not look at. Frankly, I don't look at things that don't interest me on this site if I can help it, and I do not think that anybody has been forced to look at things that they don't want to see.
I am astonished that anybody thought for one moment that all of this information is not part of the public domain and obtainable by anybody with computer know how -- and in fact much more than those pitiful little details are all out there and under the scrutiny of the internet gods.
I do understand that a lot of use grew up when privacy still existed, but those days are long gone. We can regret this, but we also have to learn to live with it. Censorship is not a solution.
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Post by Jazz on Aug 30, 2010 15:36:13 GMT
I have been following this thread with great interest and patience. After 31 posts, 9 responses by Kerouac and none by Bixa, the original question of the OP, and asked in different forms by others in 5 other posts has not yet been addressed: Why is this feature here?The diversionary conversation about online privacy is intriguing, but the question needs to be answered. I dislike the feed and as soon as I realized that I could ‘opt out’, I did so. Most others who pass through, long after this thread disappears, will not know this and may not come because they feel uncomfortable. While I understand about the growing lack of privacy today with the internet, I think it is a great loss. We need to protect what we each deem significant in whatever small ways that we can. The administrators of the forum have the responsibility to do this as well. We have to respect each others’ privacy as best we can. There does not seem to be any justification for casually offering this information to all and sundry. Is there? The justifications offered thus far are meaningless to me…’there is no privacy anymore, any one who 'knows' computers can access this info etc.etc.” An analogy: (according to your justifications to date) Any good thief could easily break into my house. In that case, I’ll just hang the key on the front door knob with a sign, ‘house key, go for it”. I doubt that you would do that. You would try to protect what you valued. The other justification offered by Kerouac is not acceptable to me. K:… ‘I do understand that a lot of use grew up when privacy still existed, but those days are long gone. We can regret this, but we also have to learn to live with it. Censorship is not a solution…” I don’t understand. This information is private and we were not asked for our permission to use it. How does it now become an issue of us asking for censorship to remove something that you had no right to display in the first place? Now to indulge in my own diversion. I don’t understand why 80 most recent posts was taken from easy access by all, to having to log in. Whilst straining your eyes, you will somehow intuitively know that if you click on the date, that this will reveal the tiny recent and click. Many people, including guests, enjoyed this feature. It originally took me 2 days to even find it! The point is that this hard to find information is the CONTENT of the Port. On the other hand, the Feed is there, with private information, at a mere glance when you first open the forum, laid out in a banquet for the curious passersby. This information should only be accessible through Administrative Control Panel or whatever the equivalent is in this software and should never be public, and particularly on a small board where it's relatively simple to connect users to the information published. I am still curious, why is this feature here?
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Post by fumobici on Aug 30, 2010 17:50:56 GMT
Well that's really the crux of the matter isn't it? It has the potential to make users uncomfortable which would maybe be OK if there were a corresponding upside, but really there is no upside whatever I can fathom from the users' perspective. Is there one I've missed perhaps?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2010 18:42:10 GMT
Well, as both Casimira and Jazz said, I think it is exhilirating to be on a travel site that shows you that you are really in a community of people from all over the world. It shows that there is considerable interest on every continent and the opportunity for new people to arrive and register, because the visits are not fake like on certain sites. I like being part of the international community, and I think it is completely normal for my city to be shown. After all, my name, address and phone number are not listed, so I certainly do not see the least bit of risk, and I think someone would have to be quite paranoid to do so.
However, we live in a very paranoid world, and it appears that the teachings of George W. Bush and his friends have fully succeeded -- trust no one, hide, stay out of sight, lurk. I thought that that was what trolls do, but apparently not.
What I find particularly depressing about the reactions of some of the people here is that it appears that they distrust the people they know even more than total strangers. They come to this site and write messages to each other, but it makes them sick and fearful if one of these other people knows that they have been on the site. I doubt that very many people here are worried if a visitor from Zimbabwe or Bolivia sees the list, because they will not be "unmasked" by those people.
Instead, people appear to think that they are so important that they are in danger of being spotted and singled out by their true name ("A Visitor" ?) often in a city of 2 or 3 million people. How incredibly self-centered and self-important is that?
Now that I have given my view on the subject, I would like to know what is so disgraceful about being a citizen of the world and making it known? I am proud of it, and it comforts me to see all of the different flags instead of the sites where almost everybody is from the same country.
Fear does not control my life.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2010 21:37:50 GMT
This is all fine and dandy Kerouac,and I concur about being a part of an international community and celebrate it heartily!! However,as stated earlier,yes,I do have some paranoid traits,and for good reason. As stated previously,as well,I have been a victim of stalking and choose to remain private in as many areas of my life,that I do have some control over,this one I thought was one of those.Apparently,I was wrong. The question remains...why is this here,and whose decision was this,why were members privacy compromised by it? Does it not violate the ProBoards Privacy Policy? Please, won't you or Bixa answer? Btw,one can remove their name from one computer,and it pops up on another...here I am back again in Live Traffic Feed. I am pressed for time at the moment,but,would like to embellish on some other points about this.
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Post by Jazz on Aug 30, 2010 21:51:26 GMT
Kerouac, fear does not control my life. But, I do like privacy. Prior to this issue, I think that we all enjoyed being part of an international community. I am not ’sick and fearful’ if anyone knows that I have been on this site. I actually DID think that it was important that if the Feed went to Toronto, it was probably me…. And, it WAS, but not now. This site is small and I eliminated my IP address, ASAP.
I have explored the Feed in detail. As of the moment, look at the Port’s Home page,...zero members, 12 guests. Flip to feed, ‘X’ logged in 8 seconds ago. Back to Home page,NOW, one member, 11 guests. We now see that “x’ (with user name on this site) is logged in. Further explore …’X’ came from Frommer’s. Further, due to writing style, we now know that “X’ is ‘Y” and that his user name on the Frommer’s site is “Y””…ad infinitum. If, as you suggest, those who know about computer savvy are reading, much more private information is available.
Let’s examine your most recent diversion….K:…” Instead, people appear to think that they are so important that they are in danger of being spotted and singled out by their true name ("A Visitor" ?) often in a city of 2 or 3 million people. How incredibly self-centered and self-important is that?”…
This site is small. I could go through the top 30 posters and tell you who is posting on the Feed to the second, with their private information, the site that they came from and their user names on the other sites. I conducted an experiment with a friend. She went to a neighborhood cafe and Posted to the Port. The Feed noted that she posted from a Cyber Cafe on Bloor St. west in Toronto at 4PM. We looked at the Feed.
It told us:
1. country, city and time of origin of the post. 2. her browser, Firefox 3.6 3. she was running on Windows Vista 4. she had arrived fom Fodor's... with very little imagination we deduced her Fodor's user name. We now knew her user name on the Port and her user name on Fodor's. 5. The address of the internet cafe (where she posted from) was clearly displayed, 2 blocks from her home.
You encourage this?
We await your answer....36 posts, 10 replies by Kerouac, none by Bixa.
Why is this feature now on the Port?
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Post by Jazz on Aug 31, 2010 2:04:22 GMT
Now, a more detailed response to Kerouac’s post #34.
Kerouac ‘… However, we live in a very paranoid world, and it appears that the teachings of George W. Bush and his friends have fully succeeded -- trust no one, hide, stay out of sight, lurk. I thought that that was what trolls do, but apparently not….’
Personally, I have no problem whatsoever with LURKING and have never understood the low caste status of lurkers. It is absolutely no one’s business if I am on or offline and I have no problem with someone ‘lurking’ on one of my threads. That is their right. If and when they choose to make their presence known is fine and their choice. There are many reasons why people lurk. Some people have been very hurt in the past online and are simply protecting themselves. I understand. Trolls are different… easily identifiable, and I could care less about them, except with an odd mixture of compassion and irritation with wasting my time. ____________________________________________
Kerouac‘:… What I find particularly depressing about the reactions of some of the people here is that it appears that they distrust the people they know even more than total strangers. They come to this site and write messages to each other, but it makes them sick and fearful if one of these other people knows that they have been on the site. I doubt that very many people here are worried if a visitor from Zimbabwe or Bolivia sees the list, because they will not be "unmasked" by those people….’
Don’t be depressed. I didn’t at all get the idea from this thread that ‘people distrust the people they know even more than total strangers.’ Not at all. We (or, I) am only depressed by complete strangers having access to this information…and am certainly not ‘sick and fearful if one of the members knows that I have been on site’. But, I have reservations about how the ‘unknown guest’ might use the personal information. There are many people out there who prey upon sites and have excellent hacking abilities. If you have ever been stalked online, you would understand. ______________________________________________
Kerouac: ‘…Instead, people appear to think that they are so important that they are in danger of being spotted and singled out by their true name ("A Visitor" ?) often in a city of 2 or 3 million people. How incredibly self-centered and self-important is that?…’
I don’t think that anyone on the Port thinks that they are so important. But, it is a small site, and the location usually nails it down. Ie: Members--- one from Toronto-Jazz…Montreal-Lagatta…Nola-Casimira… Mississauga-Joanne…Winnipeg-Imec...Ile de France-Kerouac etc. etc. If anyone is stalking, they have only to whip to the Home Page to see which member has just arrived, examine the information on the’ Feed’ and proceed from there. It’s not self-importance, it’s caution. _________________________________________
Kerouac:…’ Now that I have given my view on the subject, I would like to know what is so disgraceful about being a citizen of the world and making it known? I am proud of it, and it comforts me to see all of the different flags instead of the sites where almost everybody is from the same country.’…
It is wonderful to feel like a citizen of the world and we all share this excitement and happiness. You and Bixa have contributed overwhelmingly to this. But, I feel that you need to protect the members of your forum.
***should you have missed it, read my Post #36.
And, please answer the question: Why is this feature now on the Port?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2010 5:40:14 GMT
So, if I understand this, Jazz is the stalker who analyzes every moment of every day, and Casimira is the stalkee? I would like to know more about this privacy issue. When you live in a city of more than 1000 people and a website says "a visitor" arrived from that city, do you think you are the star? Have the paparazzi come running up to you? If you can provide a copy of your complaint to the police because the feed sent someone to your door, I will be happy to review the complaint. As to why the feature is on the Port, it attracts new people who like it. This could be a closed board, or we could remove all of the photo features, which give far too much information about people's lives. We could delete all posts which give away whether the poster is male or female. We could remove all of the member names and assign letters of the alphabet instead, we could merge all of the boards into one single board so that nobody will ever know what subject interests you. If there is such a concern for safety and you are unable to uplug your machine, which is the only thing that will no longer allow you to be identified, we can post a how-to on how to delete your account although some people are already experts in that department. This discussion is not about safety or privacy at all. It is about members who think that the site should be designed for their own personal likes and dislikes and who don't give a flying fuck about what the majority thinks. I am not angry. I have experienced frustration on many sites and been blithely ignored by management, which generally does not even reply to messages. I would just like to make it clear a person trying to handle a website cannot accept every single request or complaint that is made. You would not believe what this website would look like if every whim were satisfied. People have split from this site to make other sites when they felt that this was not the appropriate place for them, just as TTR split from the Thorn Tree and this site split from TTR. Sites evolve constantly, people complain about just about anything new or anything that is abandoned, and they also complain about everthing in between -- why didn't anybody reply to my post, why is so-and-so ignoring me, why did my thread go off topic, why did you answer that uninteresting person and not answer me, what is so-and-so going on about, are you going to let that person keep posting bad pictures, why aren't you paying attention to me me me, why are you paying so much attention to me, leave me alone, change the color of the page, make the print bigger... Get the picture? I'll keep trying to do my best, don't worry. I am not against anybody.
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Post by Jazz on Aug 31, 2010 7:56:31 GMT
Kerouac:...So, if I understand this, Jazz is the stalker who analyzes every moment of every day, and Casimira is the stalkee?... ---------
This statement is incomprehensible. HOW did you arrive at this? _______________________________
Kerouac... I would like to know more about this privacy issue. When you live in a city of more than 1000 people and a website says "a visitor" arrived from that city, do you think you are the star? Have the paparazzi come running up to you? If you can provide a copy of your complaint to the police because the feed sent someone to your door, I will be happy to review the complaint.… ----------
No, Kerouac, no one has arrived at my door. No, I do not think that I am the ‘star’. No, the paparazzi are not breaking down my doors. I only have personal issues with the ‘feed’. I am not alone. ____________________________________________
Kerouac:...’ As to why the feature is on the Port, it attracts new people who like it.’…
--------------- Thank you. After 38 posts, you have finally answered the question. However, I am not convinced that the Feed attracts new members. And, I think that an important question is this…Are you willing to disregard your members that have supported you since it’s beginnings for your possible greater glory? It seems that you are. ___________________________________________
Kerouac:...’ If there is such a concern for safety and you are unable to uplug your machine, which is the only thing that will no longer allow you to be identified, we can post a how-to on how to delete your account although some people are already experts in that department…”
----------------- Why thank you, Kerouac, I feel immensely valued by this statement, as will others. ___________________________________________
Kerouac:... This discussion is not about safety or privacy at all. It is about members who think that the site should be designed for their own personal likes and dislikes and who don't give a flying fuck about what the majority thinks. ----------------------------------
WRONG. This discussion is about privacy. It is not about my (or others) personal likes and dislikes. I do give a ‘flying fuck about what the majority thinks’, as do others. In this situation, I suspect that we are the majority, but perhaps not. ________________________________________
Kerouac:...‘I am not angry. I have experienced frustration on many sites and been blithely ignored by management, which generally does not even reply to messages. I would just like to make it clear a person trying to handle a website cannot accept every single request or complaint that is made. You would not believe what this website would look like if every whim were satisfied’….
-------------------------------------- You are angry. The entire tone of your response is hostile and defensive…against people that have been with you from the beginning and only tried to help and contribute. We are not your enemies, but you appear now to think of us in this way. Where, in this entire thread has there been a list of personal requests, complaints etc? The essence of this thread was an attempt to discuss WHY this Feed was imposed. We had no choice, I do not like it, but essentially I am understanding from you… F**k you. Yes?, I think so. ______________________________________
Kerouac:...’ People have split from this site to make other sites when they felt that this was not the appropriate place for them, just as TTR split from the Thorn Tree and this site split from TTR. Sites evolve constantly, people complain about just about anything new or anything that is abandoned, and they also complain about everthing in between -- why didn't anybody reply to my post, why is so-and-so ignoring me, why did my thread go off topic, why did you answer that uninteresting person and not answer me, what is so-and-so going on about, are you going to let that person keep posting bad pictures, why aren't you paying attention to me me me, why are you paying so much attention to me, leave me alone, change the color of the page, make the print bigger... Get the picture? --------------------------------------------
Well yes, I get the picture. You are Extremely Angry and do not want to deal with the humanity of your forum. Somehow, we are all wrong, selfish, petty, bad, craving attention etc.etc. This picture is not ‘pretty’. Essentially, we were good enough to begin your forum and help it grow, but now we are selfish and pitiful, for daring to ask a question. Yes? _________________________________________
Kerouac...' ll keep trying to do my best, don't worry. I am not against anybody. …’
You should rethink this statement…especially, ‘I am not against anybody.’ I think that you are being mean and hostile to some of your members, without reason. Unless, of course, you do not like to be questioned. __________________________________
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2010 8:33:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2010 9:20:58 GMT
Kerouac I think you should have informed the members that their private messages (at least their titles) are now made public. I'm not paranoid but I'm much intrigued about this message about me and Fulgenzio in your inbox. For casimira and Jazz: the message at the bottom (Re: Feedjit) is a reply from Kerouac to Bixa - Nothing is private anymore isn't it ?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2010 9:54:27 GMT
I will never make a good stalker because I was not aware of that. I don't even know where to find it. I absolutely agree that inbox titles should not be public; I will look into the matter immediately.
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Post by Jazz on Aug 31, 2010 10:07:28 GMT
Thank you, Askar, this is an unwelcome but predictable 'surprise'. Can we all agree that the Feedjit is an unwelcome addition? My friend who is a computer whiz just traced ,and read, the message from Kerouac to Bixa just from this photo. Depressing.
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Post by imec on Aug 31, 2010 12:54:04 GMT
This discussion is not about safety or privacy at all. It is about members who think that the site should be designed for their own personal likes and dislikes and who don't give a flying fuck about what the majority thinks. So what does the majority think about this? Do the opinions expressed in this thread represent those of the majority or just a vocal minority? Either way, please add my name to the "dislike" list.
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Post by bixaorellana on Aug 31, 2010 15:11:46 GMT
Okay.
For the record, the widget has been removed and the advice of our host forum is being sought.
I have stayed out of this thread not only because there is no reason for me to chime in when Kerouac is already handling something, but also because I take exception to the demand that I answer. Further, there is no reason for contentiousness nor for a kangaroo court to spring up over every little issue.
This forum was created with the skills and tools available at the time to those of us who put it together. It was not passed to us engraved on tablets from a blast of light on top of a mountain. Thus, it will continue to change as circumstance indicates and as better tools become available.
We are aware that anyport has visitors from the whole world. We also knew that some were arriving here from broken links -- i.e., links that no longer worked to take them to the specific threads they wished to visit. The feedjit widget allowed us to monitor that and try to figure out a way to helpfully direct those visitors. Further, as this is an international forum with emphasis on travel, it was fun to see the place names from all over.
It was placed at the bottom so it would be out of the way. No one dreamed anyone would notice it much or even care once the novelty wore off. It was certainly never meant to check on the members, who can be seen in the info center in any event.
We thought the little widget was innocuous and simply a tool that would guide us to ways to attract more members. It now seems that it can show more than was thought. Whereas it's good to know this, it's a shame it couldn't have been checked out and reported privately instead of creating a furor over it.
I find it pretty depressing that in a forum with so many topics on such a wide variety of subjects, it's a negative thread such as this that gets so much attention.
It would be nice if, instead of taking instant umbrage to every little change or innovation on the forum, support in the endeavor to make it grow positively could be demonstrated instead.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2010 15:16:32 GMT
I will never make a good stalker because I was not aware of that. I don't even know where to find it. I absolutely agree that inbox titles should not be public; I will look into the matter immediately. Well, you may not have been aware,but,someone else was...I'm sure. This is getting more and more twisted,disconcerting,unsettling and very,very depressing to me. I had no idea all this was going on...jeez people...WTF were/are you thinking? ?? I started this thread with a simple question,which could have been answered in one reply,and here we are umpteen posts later with all this revealed. Oh,what a tangled web we weave...
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Post by bixaorellana on Aug 31, 2010 15:38:57 GMT
The rest of that quote is "when first we practice to deceive".
No one was trying to deceive anyone.
I am assuming you posted at the same time I did and did not see my reply above. There is no reason to keep this thread going now other than a desire for cheap drama.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2010 17:13:42 GMT
Yes,we must have posted at the same time,as I did not see your response until just now Bixa. My response to it is not an attempt at cheap drama,but,to express my extreme disappointment,that all of this is now being revealed at the expense of many of us long time members,Jazz having been recruited by Kerouac,and I, by Bixa,at the inception of this forum having to virtually beg for a response to the OP. Add to that roster,three other dedicated members. Why no one would respond to the OP in a direct manner (not the run around responses which Kerouac gave us for the first ten replies or so...),was insensitive and disrespectful of us,the people who make this forum. Why were we not informed of this,and furthermore,why,when everything else is tested out ever so carefully,and controlled with an iron fist,this was not tested out first before implementing? I did not demand an answer,until I felt is was necessary because as an administra tor of this forum and technological Wizard,you,Bixa,needed to answer to your members. I have great affection for this forum,have been a dedicated poster since it's inception,and despite some hissy fits and erratic behavior,have hung in there through thick and thin with y'all because I care about the place. I feel that I and other long time members who have done the same were treated very shabbily. No cheap drama in that is there? All of this could have been avoided in so many ways guys!!
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Post by fumobici on Aug 31, 2010 17:39:06 GMT
Glad to see it finally resolved sensibly. The concerns may have been overstated but the responses to those concerns sometimes seemed dripping with unnecessary hauteur and condescension.
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Post by onlymark on Sept 15, 2010 16:50:26 GMT
So, now the dust has settled - anyone want a cup of tea?
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 15, 2010 17:16:13 GMT
*ooo ~~ that nice Mark is back!*
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Post by hwinpp on Sept 21, 2010 9:19:05 GMT
Drama on the high seas! Ok, I'll shut up now.
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