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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 29, 2017 15:21:08 GMT
I'm sure I am not the only person who has hesitated to broach the subject, but it is impossible to ignore it. Like most of us, I am not really qualified to analyse the validity of the Catalonian independence movement. It seems to have had quite a bit of regional autonomy, but I don't really know exactly what that entails. The local police and the media are controlled regionally, which seems somewhat normal, but what more do they want? I fully understand the desire of republicans to not want to live in a kingdom. After all, Spain has already had a terrible civil war about this subject. But in countries where the sovereign is only a figurehead, is it really that important? In the long run, I think that the concept of royalty will disappear, just as the control by religion in many countries has faded away.
The language issue seems to crop up, since Catalonian and Castilian are different languages, but quite a few countries have managed to live with regional languages. I really do not care for the intransigence of the Belgian regions in terms of road signs or municipal services, but I never saw anything so extreme in Spain. But of course, I do not live there, so maybe I am missing something.
The EU has indicated that it is 100% against the independence of Catalonia, both the union itself and each individual country, many of which have regional movements that could cause trouble if independence became a fad. All of the countries that have split up in the last 30 years or so did so before becoming members of the EU (Czechia, Slovakia, Slovenia), so the problem has never before presented itself. Naturally, one must wonder about Scotland, which could perhaps choose independence in order to remain part of the EU if the UK manages to leave.
I find myself wondering if there was any provision in the United States constitution when numerous states seceded from the Union in the 19th century, but I assume that it was an "illegal" decision. I do not really feel like looking it up right now. I do remember learning in school that when the ephemeral Republic of Texas joined the United States, it retained the legal right to split into 5 different states because of its size at some time in the future. I am sort of surprised that they have never threatened to do it, because can you imagine the United States with eight more senators to influence national policy? |
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 29, 2017 16:01:40 GMT
Starting from the last paragraph in the OP, since that's the only part I really know anything about ~
Yes, the secession of the states from the Union was illegal. It was actually also illegal for West Virgina to secede from Virginia, but under the circumstances, the Union allowed it.
As for Texas, good but scary point about splitting. However, that brings up a crucial general point about splitting, whether from a state within a union or from the larger body of a country, i.e., what will the new small body do without the revenue it enjoyed as part of the whole?
I may be making this statement out of ignorance, but ... Tiny segments lacking the benefit of the shared resources of the whole but wishing to break away seem a great deal like underage teens threatening to leave the suburban splendors of the parental home in order to make it on their own.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2017 19:17:24 GMT
Shudder shudder at the thought of the Texas info posted.
Yes, it would seem and most of the discussion among friends is the seemingly foolhardiness of this "acting out" and the impact/ramifications it will surely suffer economically.
I guess my next question is as to whether or not this was an "issue" that has been bounced around for some time now or what?
I'm truly baffled and confused.
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Post by lagatta on Oct 29, 2017 22:36:53 GMT
I doubt that the Catalonian independence movement actually has a mandate: opinion seems very divided. However the intransigence of the Spanish state has infuriated many Catalans who aren't even particularly nationalist; we can't overlook the long shadow cast by Franco's version of fascism. Iberian fascism wasn't defeated at the conclusion of the Second World War, and the subsequent denazification in Germany/Austria and the victory of the republic in Italy; it occurred in the mid-1970s with the Carnation Revolution in Portugal and the subsequent end of Franco's rule in Spain. Such a long fascist rule casts an equally long shadow; it isn't just a matter of folkloric nationalism or adolescent petulant behaviour.
The Spanish government should be talking. Throwing peaceful representatives of political parties and movements in jail is really not cool.
It is a bit off-topic but also funny to talk about the illegality of Confederate seccession and of course about Texas without remembering what the supposed Texan(slaveholder) rebels and many others in the US did to Mexico.
Of course in retrospect other North Americans denounce Confederate secession, but that is because of the heinous nature of chattel slavery (even in relation to peonage and Victorian wage-slavery) as it destroyed families and denied the very humanity of enslaved people.
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 30, 2017 6:02:31 GMT
The real test begins Monday morning when the government offices reopen.
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Post by patricklondon on Oct 30, 2017 7:02:49 GMT
Shudder shudder at the thought of the Texas info posted.
I guess my next question is as to whether or not this was an "issue" that has been bounced around for some time now or what? I'm truly baffled and confused. Bounced around since the settlement of the War of Spanish Succession attached rule over Catalonia to the Kings of Spain, though in modern terms since the late nineteenth century development of cultural nationalisms across Europe. In Catalonia it was, simplistically, also a tension between the Catalan industrial and merchant classes of the modern economy and the semi-feudal Spanish landed aristocracies. Under the Republic, Catalonia won a degree of political autonomy, but of course all of that was anathema to Franco's regime, which suppressed political and cultural autonomy. The democratic regime reinstated the semi-autonomous Generalitat government, but the new Spanish constitution specifically disallowed secession. Nevertheless, pro-independence parties have been in and out of Catalan governments over the decades: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Catalonia |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 15:53:39 GMT
Thank you ever so much for your response Patrick. I really admire your encyclopedic knowledge of so many things, most especially European History.
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Oct 30, 2017 16:33:59 GMT
Yes, thank you Patrick  I don't really have enough knowledge to form an opinion. In the UK there are little flurries of regional rebellion (with a small 'r') the Cornish in particular have factions who 'cry freedom'... I don't mean to belittle the passionate crusade of regions who feel that the fact that evidence of a regional language exists signifies a right to independence. I just don't understand it... Scotland is different, it is already a country in its own right rather than a county. I don't wan't Scotland to leave the UK but it isn't up to me... I didn't want us to leave Europe....together we are stronger yah-da-yah-da-yah-da As for Catalonia, if we've learned anything from recent referendums in the UK it's that IF you are voting for a BIG change (like leaving the EU for instance or declaring independence) then there should be a minimum turnout of the population, and there should be more than 51% in favour...say 65%? Probably me being over zealous about change....and probably illegal  I'll get my coat..... |
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Post by patricklondon on Oct 30, 2017 16:54:25 GMT
Casi, the War of the Spanish Succession was rather drummed into us at school. But the War of the Austrian Succession is a closed book to me..... My blog | My photos | My video clips My Librivox | "too literate to be spam" |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 17:10:38 GMT
My husband most especially appreciated your response as his Maternal Grandmother was from Barcelona and he has cousins who reside there.
We hope to go some time in the upcoming year.
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Oct 30, 2017 17:12:41 GMT
Your school sounds like it was better than mine Patrick...or maybe you were just a better student.
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 30, 2017 17:34:14 GMT
New information on what is happening today is rather scarce, but at least it appears that all of the political parties will be participating in the new elections on December 21st. If the result is decisive, that might calm things... for awhile.
My own idea is that Madrid needs to find a way to accord a bit more more autonomy to Catalonia. But nobody seems to know exactly what would satisfy these people. I think that the main roots of the situation go back to the Spanish civil war. If Spain had been able to remain a republic rather than a kingdom, I really don't think that any of this would have happened.
Nevertheless, I must confess ignorance to all of the details.
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Post by patricklondon on Oct 30, 2017 18:43:23 GMT
My own idea is that Madrid needs to find a way to accord a bit more more autonomy to Catalonia. But nobody seems to know exactly what would satisfy these people. I think that the main roots of the situation go back to the Spanish civil war. If Spain had been able to remain a republic rather than a kingdom, I really don't think that any of this would have happened. It seems the central government have been making noises to the effect that more fiscal autonomy is possible. I don't doubt the experience of what Franco did to Catalonia and the previous autonomy statutes adds to the strength of indepentista feeling, but before that the pressure for autonomy in part drew on the element of resentment, still continuing, that Catalonia is thought to be subsidising the rest of Spain. Some have drawn parallels with the recent votes in Lombardy and Veneto, like the rest of the Northern League agitation in Italy, as reflecting the same sort of feeling - but what then to do about social solidarity? |
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Post by questa on Oct 30, 2017 22:27:15 GMT
Not many people know that Australia has periodic spasms of secession-ism when the huge State of Western Australia tries to leave the Federation www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-31/waxit-explainer-wa-liberals-to-debate-secession-motion/8858912The state contributes more than its share with the revenue from the gold and iron ore mines and other sources.It does not receive Federal Govt. support as much because of its lower population. W.A is thousands of Km from the National capital and relates with Asia more so than the East Coast. There are many good reasons for secession, but I hope it doesn't happen. There is a push on at the moment to split the country. Watch this space... |
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 31, 2017 4:58:09 GMT
"More than our share" seems to be a recurrent theme in secessionist movements but not always. Some areas totally live off money from the rest of the country and yet they still dream of total autonomy, or at least part of the population does. Corsica comes to mind...
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 31, 2017 12:48:08 GMT
I find it truly amazing that what appeared to be a major national crisis turned into just a silly farce so quickly. Carles Puigdemont running off to Brussels to try to avoid arrest was simply ridiculous. What next?
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 31, 2017 15:02:33 GMT
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Post by patricklondon on Oct 31, 2017 15:27:25 GMT
I find it truly amazing that what appeared to be a major national crisis turned into just a silly farce so quickly. Carles Puigdemont running off to Brussels to try to avoid arrest was simply ridiculous. Well, so was threatening heavy criminal charges like "rebellion" and such. Something with a civil/political penalty like disqualification from office carries much less risk of creating a martyr. My blog | My photos | My video clips My Librivox | "too literate to be spam" |
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I'll get my coat.....