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Post by lagatta on Apr 27, 2017 12:49:56 GMT
The more recent versions of electoral analysis don't present a straight line or a horseshoe, but an "electoral compass" (boussole électorale) incorporating both left vs right and "libertaire" vs authoritarian.
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Post by patricklondon on Apr 27, 2017 14:25:48 GMT
Going from far left to far right - I know that some of the programs intersect or overlap, but still it surprises me. I hesitate to risk falling foul of Godwin's Law, but you only have to look at the trajectory of figures from the past like Déat and Doriot (let alone Mussolini)..... For some mentalities, radical extremity is more important than the actual principles and policies it's applied to. My blog | My photos | My video clips"too literate to be spam"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 14:40:58 GMT
The problem with many "revolutionaries" is that they actually want things to get much worse, because they think that this will finally shock the proletariat into revolutionary action. But I don't think the old models hold true anymore since it seems that more and more countries are being shocked into reactionary actions rather than revolution.
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Post by lagatta on Apr 27, 2017 15:58:41 GMT
Mussolini was always a militarist, even when he was a socialist.
I don't think most leftists want things to get worse; there is just an observation of worsening in some respects: a much greater gap in income between the ruling class and the rest of us, environmental degradation and the refusal to address it.
In other ways things have got better: greater equality for women in some parts of the world, including a decline in birthrate in many countries, not only the wealthiest, and longer life expectancies. And at least in some places gay and lesbian people aren't persecuted as was the case very recently. Certain forms of racism, but not all, have become unacceptable in many societies.
I think many people, in particular those in political or economic power, simply refuse to address and correct ecocidal "development". There are some fortunate exceptions.
The rise of demagogues in many parts of the world (not just Europe and North America) could be an expression of a lack of hope.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 17:18:40 GMT
I don't think most leftists want things to get worse; Jeez, do you think that leftists and revolutionaries are the same thing? Things must be even worse than I thought in North America.
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Post by lagatta on Apr 27, 2017 18:21:04 GMT
No, but I didn't know exactly whom you were referring to - did you mean Mélenchon, or only the two fringe left party candidates? Or some violent groups?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 20:28:55 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 12:34:56 GMT
Just 9 more days before we can retire this thread! Yay!
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Post by lagatta on Apr 28, 2017 12:52:31 GMT
I wonder why they gave Le Pen black hair - don't know whether she was a "natural blonde" - probably actually fairly grey by now...
She was blonde as a little girl - probably sandy (châtain clair) as an adult.
I certainly concede that one advantage of Macron's win is that it does increase the likelihood of him trouncing the fascist, with backing by Sarko and Hollande...
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Post by lagatta on Apr 28, 2017 13:31:52 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 15:41:40 GMT
After banning most journalists from covering the Le Pen rallies, now they are going after press photographers who publish unflattering photos of her. s19.postimg.cc/4601brqc3/rides.jpg
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Post by bjd on Apr 28, 2017 16:33:38 GMT
I was talking about her with one of my neighbours yesterday. She said something I found very apt: that Marine le Pen sounds like a fishwife when she talks. She called her la poissonière.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 16:45:20 GMT
I find it disconcerting that people would support and vote for someone based on their physical characteristics although, history has most certainly indicated that they do (Nixon vs. JFK).
And, even in Canada, Trudeau certainly seems to have had an advantage of being the young, handsome, charismatic etc. despite his lack of experience and IMHO qualifications to be PM.
But, then consider Hillary vs. trump, neither have any redeeming physical attributes and yet, look what happened.
Frankly, I am still stunned at the outcome of this election.
WTF happened? Someone tell me please.
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Post by lagatta on Apr 28, 2017 16:46:09 GMT
That isn't even a particularly unflattering photo - she simply looks her age. And yes, indeed a fishwife.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 17:24:20 GMT
That isn't even a particularly unflattering photo - she simply looks her age. And yes, indeed a fishwife. Despite your political leanings, I find it offensive to characterize someone as looking like a "fishwife'. What does a "fishwife" look like anyway? I know plenty of women here who are wives of fishermen, some quite attractive, others not so. I find it hypocritical that the mature (maybe), well informed, objective, intelligent women on here, would reduce themselves to such pettiness. I knew there was a reason I shy from posting in this thread. It disgusts me that people can be hypersensitive to what isn't even remotely a personal attack on them, ("not stand the heat...as K2 posted) and then resort to this kind of thinking. No, I am not a fan of Ms. LePen but, I would not allow myself to resort to nasty stereotyping and then portray myself as a responsible, mature, not only woman but, someone who is well informed to make such judgements and pronouncements.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 17:58:56 GMT
Yesterday she did a photo op on a fishing boat, and she is most definitely not a fishwife. She was unable to catch the octopus that her political ally tossed at her. Didn't even try, actually.
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Post by bjd on Apr 28, 2017 18:59:44 GMT
Casi, my neighbour and I said she sounds like a fishwife. I don't know about fishermen's wives in the States, but in France, the wife was often the one who sold the fish once her husband had brought it to shore. In places like the port of Marseilles. Hence they were known for being loud and pushy.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 20:08:11 GMT
Probably fishmonger is a better term -- both male and female traditional fishmongers have yell their lungs out to sell more fish than their competitors. And Marine has a very hoarse voice from all that yelling.
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Post by lagatta on Apr 28, 2017 23:49:06 GMT
Yes, fishmonger would be the sex-neutral term. And I don't mean to insult fisherfolk or fishwives, they are hardworking people with very hard lives. Fisherfolk are up there with miners and foresters for the most deadly occupations. I most certainly don't want to slight hardworking people! We'd have no food without farmers and fisherfolk. One of my uncles was a small farmer, and he died when his tractor fell over on him. This is far too common.
I'm very sorry if that was the (classist) implication of what I said. My point was someone born to wealth and priviilege who affects "populaire" accents and behaviour. And those people exist just as much on the left as on the right.
And little as I like Marine Le Pen, I didn't think that photo was unflattering. She looks friendly and pleasant in that photo, and certainly not unattractive.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 3:40:48 GMT
And yet she can't stand that image of herself. She wants to look at least 10 years younger.
Theoretically there are no bad professions, but some will always get a bad rap and be used as an negative example to "normal" people -- prison guard and executioner come to mind. And it is only in my adult life that people have become more careful about saying things like "garbage man." Among my colleagues, there was one mother who was constantly haranguing her daughter about her grades and always evoked the risk that she would become a supermarket cashier if she didn't take school more seriously.
Macron has had to defend himself from every single political party, both right and left, about being accused of being a "banker" (or, even worse, a "trader"). Anything can become an insult these days.
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Post by lagatta on Apr 29, 2017 9:37:52 GMT
Well, that isn't "classist" in the sense of looking down on people, and its current application (left and right) is due to globalisation and currency crises. Of course it is absurd if taken literally, because even a more cooperative form of economy would require bankers and a banking system. And some in the FN have used "Rothschild" in ways that allude to the old and lethal canard of the international Jewish conspiracy (which supposedly involved everyone from that banking family to revolutionaries such as Trotsky, Luxemburg and Emma Goldman...)
Billingsgate was the largest fish market in London (and at one point, one of the largest in the world), and "Billingsgate" refers to the "foul" but also colourful language of the people working at the market ...
Funny, as yesterday 28.04 was the Day of Mourning for workers killed or seriously injured on the job. That started in Canada but is now worldwide. It also bears the more "positive" name of World Day for Health and Safety at Work.
Ironically, the Rana Plaza collapse occurred the same week, on April 24th. It has become Labour Safety Day in Bangladesh.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 10:39:55 GMT
Les Républicains (Fillon and Sarkozy's party) got in big trouble early in the campaign when their media people published a caricature of Macron after one of the former heads of the Communist party (Robert Hue) said that he supported Macron. They had to withdraw it and apologise immediately since it showed Macron with a crooked nose wearing a top hat. Bankers are hated by various far left and far right groups more than just about any other category in France even in 2017. Macron worked at a bank for a grand total of 4 years, but it will be considered a blemish on his character for the rest of his life.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 21:20:24 GMT
I have read 9%,12%,18%. Which one to believe? Since last Sunday the hunt is open for Jean-Luc Mélenchon. You find articles in the press or on Internet where the titles don't match the content making him saying what he did not. They will quote him saying in a video that he will vote Macron while actually he's just saying he will go to the polling station (you can understand it will be a blank ballot). Lazy journaalism or disinformation? Anyway even if these figures are/were inflated, it's certain that some of the people who voted Mélenchon at the first round will vote for Le Pen next week. You don't control the people who vote for you. There are even a few voters of Macron who will vote Le Pen at the second round! The sociologists distinguish two kinds of votes; the vote of support (vote d'adhésion) of people who know the program or its main points and on the other side the "affective vote" or the vote of protest. Mélenchon had a the highest percentage (around 65%)of the former between all of the candidates. There is still these 35% of people, not knowing anything concrete about his program, who voted for him because he seemed to have the will to change their lives. Now that this candidate is eliminated, they will go for the one who is the more charismatic. As much as I hate Marine Le Pen I think she has some charisma, in her own way. She has an image of beeing closer to the more modest people. Well, on one side you have the guy who shelters a refugee, on the other the thug who desecrates a Jewish tomb. OK, both actions are illegal. Jean-Luc Mélenchon does not support Marine Le Pen, neither passively nor actively. It's obvious to anyone who knows a bit about French politics. All of these claims about his implicit support to Marine Le Pen serve only to discredit him and France Insoumise for the next election in June. In 2002, when Jean-Marie Le Pen was at the round with Jacques Chirac, all the political parties, from the right to the Ligue Communiste Révolutionaire (The Ligue Communiste Révolutionaire!!) called for voting for Chirac. I was one of the thousands on the marches against the Front National. There were people of the PS, PC, LCR. Of the rightist parties there was nobody. These good people would not mix with us unbathed, unshaved low class. With all the support Chirac got from the Left one would have thought that he would have formed a government closer to the center. He did not and no government since then did attack the root cause of the growth of the Front National, unemployement and poverty. With the ultra-liberal policy of Macron, things have no chance to go better. In 5 years Le Pen has a fair chance to come first at the first round. Eventuaally you might have to chose between the Front National and *shudder* France Insoumise. For those who speak French and want to know the stance of France Insoumise about the 2nd round of the French election. jlm2017.fr/2017/04/28/revue-de-semaine-26-apres-premier-tour-de-presidentielle/
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 21:33:14 GMT
These are the two final official political posters for the second round of the presidential election. Basically, the only thing that I have read about the Macron poster is "he's trying to look older." As for the Le Pen poster, all sorts of comments have been made. For example, Marine no longer has a last name. She does not even have a political party. She has a lot of books behind her, so she must be very intelligent. And she is much more feminine than usual, even showing a bit of leg, so she should appeal to women voters and anybody who likes women. Only time will tell.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 4:16:07 GMT
I love political plagiarism. Marine Le Pen is probably going to have one of her speechwriters drawn and quartered.
She made one little change about the role of France int he 21st century, though. Where Fillon said it was an alternative to Stalinism and Nazism (which kind of shows how stuck in the past he was), Marine Le Pen preferred to say that it was a rampart against globalisation and Islamist ideology.
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Post by bjd on May 2, 2017 4:56:05 GMT
I heard last night that 10% of voters over 70 voted for le Pen in the first round. Maybe it's only older people who remember her father and are not taken in by the "new and improved" Marine?
On the news I saw a young black guy being interviewed at a Marine le Pen rally: he said, "She's not her father, she has changed." Well, the FN is still the FN and she is still completely part of it.
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Post by bixaorellana on May 2, 2017 5:29:23 GMT
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Post by lagatta on May 2, 2017 15:06:05 GMT
On Radio-Canada this morning, they played long excerpts of the voice-overed plagiarism. And were obviously having a laugh...
Stephen Harper made a speech largely plagiarised from John Howard, some years ago...
Who exactly were the casseurs who made the violent foray into the May Day parade?
I've been to Paris on May Day and the event was very calm. Many families present.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 16:54:41 GMT
The incidents yesterday were one of the consequences -- fortunately not common -- of anarchists and notably the 'Black Block' joining demonstrations. This has been going on for years and normally just concerns bank windows and bus stops being broken or cars being burned -- not really a big thing in the scheme of things in the world, even though they are extremely regrettable and ridiculous. These people do not vote, they do not believe in voting, they are against democracy and just want to trash society until it collapses. Luckily, they are a very tiny minority albeit extremely annoying and capable of producing dramatic images, which help to recruit more idiots for the future. Meanwhile, I maintain that a lot of the Mélenchon voters are passive (or perhaps not so passive) supporters of Marine Le Pen since their 'vote' was revealed today for the second round of the election: only 35% of those who expressed an opinion say they will vote for Macron to block Le Pen. The others say they will abstain or cast a void ballot although in a poll, 18% have said that they will vote for Le Pen. Mélenchon has fuelled the fire and will be responsible for the consequences.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 16:57:00 GMT
Just saw this disconcerting news story. Hope any of you who are in Paris and were at the May Day march are okay. One of our lurking and non posting members was treated to tear gas and a burning vehicle but no danger yesterday.
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