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Post by kerouac2 on Apr 7, 2020 10:06:42 GMT
At last the prisons are good for something other than just keeping nasty and dangerous people away from us.
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Post by bixaorellana on Apr 8, 2020 3:41:44 GMT
Mark, I don't think I've commented anywhere in this thread, as I would have nothing useful to say. It does make for painful, frustrating reading and I just feel so badly for the two of you
The photo looks as though it's in a medical office and your brother looks not only alert and calm, but also as though he is engaged with someone in the room. Nice to see that he has a touch of humor in his eye.
Perhaps the court felt -- or knew -- that there was specialized psychiatric care in that jail which might be a more appropriate fit for your brother than a standard mental ward would be. He certainly does seem to be at peace with his surroundings.
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Post by onlyMark on Apr 8, 2020 7:29:35 GMT
I am quite happy he is there and in effect, it has shortcut the whole process of getting him care. Had I thought of this when I arrived I could easily have been tempted to get him to rob a bank or something. That would have saved me no end of trouble. But, that's is/was obviously not practical, so with my frequent use of the words labyrinth and leviathan (regarding the system and the social services) I hope my efforts would have resulted in proper help for him, maybe not as quickly but a week or two after I left after it had been set in motion - though the sticking point I could never overcome was that unless he was deemed to be a danger to himself or others, he could not be confined and thus able to just walk away when he felt like it.
This I knew was not an ideal solution because it relied on others, doctors etc, who may or may not have spent time with him, to decide he must be restrained from leaving a facility. Before I went to Spain and after I decided the situation was serious for me to have to do so, Mrs M and I spoke and as pragmatic and practical as ever, we agreed there were definite advantages to him being in a prison but left it at that thinking it was unlikely. But not, as it turned out.
A question I'm trying to find an answer to is as with normal criminals, you get time off for good behaviour etc. Will that happen with him taking everything into account? He should be released around the end of August, but even if released early.............. and then? I am still involved trying to ascertain if the social services have an 'exit strategy' for him with continuing care or not, somewhere to stay and all that kind of thing. What is happening with his apartment where the tenant is refusing to leave? I still have many unanswered questions.
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Post by bixaorellana on Apr 8, 2020 17:55:10 GMT
unless he was deemed to be a danger to himself or others, he could not be confined Very frustrating in the case of your brother and people with similar issues, but very understandable in light of how confinement was used in the past, i.e., on "hysterical" women, etc. ... as with normal criminals, you get time off for good behaviour etc. Will that happen with him taking everything into account? He should be released around the end of August, but even if released early.............. and then? I am still involved trying to ascertain if the social services have an 'exit strategy' for him ... Some of your questions are automatically on hold as long as Spain remains in lockdown because of the virus. I tried googling some stuff and what I found is undoubtedly what you already know, but I'll pass it on anyway: www.dfa.ie/media/embassyspain/Prison-Information-Pack-Spain.pdfand www.justlanded.com/english/Spain/Articles/Visas-Permits/In-Prison-In-Spain
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Post by onlyMark on Apr 8, 2020 19:59:38 GMT
Thanks for the links. yes, I'd seen the first one and have it saved somewhere from some time ago, but not the second one.
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Post by onlyMark on Aug 25, 2020 10:55:22 GMT
Update - the end of August is coming up and my brother is to be released on the 28th. Obtaining information is still like getting blood out of a stone and I suppose the authorities do have their own timetables but I'd like to think my constant prodding and poking gets results. The plan is I will pick him up and take him to a 'Residencia' where he can stay. This will be open in that he is able to leave whenever he wants, but the place will make an assessment of him to see if they should stop him, i.e. detain him and not allow him to leave. They will also assist with his financial problems, like getting access to his bank account, getting him medical attention and helping sort out the non-paying tenant of his apartment. Problem number one is that I have not yet been informed which or where this is to be and until I get confirmation of this, I am still slightly disbelieving it will work out. It's all a bit last minute - mainly because of people being on holiday. He has had to sign voluntarily that he accepts going to a 'Home' but the sticking point is that he would only sign if the place is virtually in the middle of Granada so he has access to his kids. The social services say they can only offer him one in Granada Province - which is quite large - and if he refuses, then they've done their responsibility and he can then just fend for himself. I sympathise with this to a certain extent because, through intermediaries, I've pressured them to fulfil their obligations, which they are appearing to do without pandering to 'beggars being choosers'. So I told them, his main concern is seeing his kids (and he was breaking down in tears whenever the subject came up) so to persuade him you have to emphasise that as a convicted criminal who is homeless, there is very little chance of him being authorised to see them. Whereas with a permanent address (no matter if it is some distance away), stability and in the care of the social services who are aiding him to get his life on track, his chances are far, far better. (In reality, there is no longer any restraining order against him and in fact, there never was regarding his kids, but nevertheless, visits organised by the Residencia are the safest option.) So he signed his permission to go to the Home and the 'file' was signed off on that part. The decision as to which home I should be told about today. All I have heard is that the home is for the elderly and those who have mental problems but also can offer a secure place for them to be detained in. We'll see if it turns out like that, maybe. I was at one point told he was in the prison general population now, but word from the horse's mouth, the social services contact in the prison, is that he has always been and will always be, in the medical wing.
I had emphasised to his social services contact outside the prison who was arranging this placement - it is one who I met in February that forever will be identified by my brother's ex-partner and I as the man with the fetid breath that - a) he/they have an obligation to offer him assistance as soon as he is released from prison (but it is his choice as to if he takes it or not I didn't mention but they know that), b) I find it impossible to believe every home/establishment/medical facility in the whole of Granada Province is full, absolutely full, and there isn't even one place for him, temporary or not, where they have the authority to place him, c) I mentioned that I know there is a system in place regarding emergency cases whereby facilities and resources can be allocated to a person at short notice (think domestic abuse whereby the woman has to be taken to a place of safety - I had to call on the UK services several times to accommodate victims and to get them away from the abuser at that very moment), so even though this is somewhat different, though the reason he went to prison is because of him being physically abusive (out of frustration more than anything else), I cannot see how you can justify just abandoning him to live on the streets, and, d) just because you go on holiday for a month doesn't mean that when the release date is whilst you are on holiday, doesn't also mean we all have to wait until you come back with my brother living on the streets until you do. That's what you have (overworked for sure but nevertheless..) colleagues for to take over the file. Just to mention in case you haven't noticed, diplomacy is not one of my strengths. That's then the point we are at. I await information as to where he needs to go etc etc. We'll see what happens. I'm also lacking accurate information as to his mental state and if there is any real improvement - or not - but I have been told he is incontinent and has to wear adult nappies (diapers). Mind you, I knew that he was unable to control himself as soon as I met him in February. I have a plan when I do pick him up to take him to the home for a few hours but I want to get him settled in there as soon as I can (crossed fingers the place exists).
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Post by kerouac2 on Aug 25, 2020 12:51:16 GMT
I have just enough experience to know how frustrating all of this is.
It's terrible to say, but the covid pandemic probably relieved some of the pressure for finding space in the homes for the elderly. Of course, I don't know how overcrowded the facilities in Spain are. When I was finally able to get my mother on a waiting list in Paris, I was told that it might take up to six months, but it took less than three. That still would have been too much if my mother had already been in a condition where I could not leave her to go to work (and still I had to rush home numerous times when 'something' happened).
Files go untouched in civil service offices in France too during the holiday period. In fact, I'm pretty sure that it is the same everywhere in the world where someone has been assigned to a case -- nobody else will touch it.
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Aug 25, 2020 13:33:19 GMT
How old are your brother's children? As you say Mark, if they are very young it's unlikely that he would be awarded visitation rights if he doesnt have a permanent address. It must be a big worry for you and your family. My niece is a social worker and if she is going to be away for any length of time she has to organise cover for the more vulnerable clients herself, easier said than done with the number of cases heaped on individ workers. If a client's problems can't be resolved in a given time frame that's not taken into account when more cases are allocated. Also, red tape and other welfare workers are all involved as a 'team' for each client...its fiendishly difficult to organise...no wonder relatives get so frustrated. Good luck medear.
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Post by onlyMark on Aug 25, 2020 15:03:31 GMT
Cheery, they are twins of fourteen and a daughter of nine. "It must be a big worry for you and your family." - it is of concern for sure, the whole situation, but worry is too strong a word. He's not at death's door, 'just' mentally ill.
The biggest concern for his ex is that he'll keep coming round to her place and causing problems. Getting him help is necessary for her and for him. For me, I'm not so directly affected apart from wanting what is best for him and sticking my oar in hard enough that, selfishly, he gets priority treatment rather than someone else that in reality may need it more - this is for example why I 'reminded' his social worker outside the prison that time doesn't stop when he goes on holiday and playing up on the urgency of something being arranged more than it really is.
I'm basically making a nuisance of myself (with a certain amount of enjoyment) in the hope they'll pull the stops out in order to get rid of me. Sitting with my thumb up my arse, waiting for someone somewhere to do something at their pace is not a productive exercise for me.
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Post by onlyMark on Aug 25, 2020 16:18:57 GMT
K2, I was lucky, in a perverse way, I never had to go through with my parents what you did with your mother. My mother collapsed in bed and was what the TV calls DOA at the hospital (don't know if that is a real term anyway) and my father was found a place in home for a test week to see how he took to it but on the first day I think, had to be taken to hospital with lung problems where he died a few days later.
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Post by onlyMark on Aug 25, 2020 16:19:09 GMT
Siesta time has come to an end in Spain and so I have been contacted by the social services and been informed a place has been arranged for him at a Home in Orgiva, which is about 50km to the south of Granada. It is an old folk’s home, don’t believe it has any secure facility to keep him, but does specialise in mental problems. I can only wonder if my interventions have been influential. It’s a start apart from one thing, or more than one really -
They want a negative Covid test. Everyone of any note at the medical wing of the prison has now gone home. The social services outside the prison are not answering their phones. Do they know about this? Probably but I have to be sure, especially as it may be that the waiting time for the result of any test could well be some time after I’m supposed to take him to the home. That presents another problem of what to do with him for a few days in the interim - not too big a problem but I’d rather not interrupt his ‘chain of care’ and take him away from that environment overnight/overnights/a week or whatever.
Also, even with a negative test clutched in his sweaty palm, he would still have to quarantine for 14 days. How on earth they would stop him just leaving and walking about or trying to get back to Granada, I have no idea. That’d be fun to know. Lastly, there have recently been some covid cases in the town and some extra or old restrictions reinstated. One being that the Home has blocked off all access for visitors. That throws a spanner in the works for his kids to visit etc and makes me wonder about dropping him off. I would have liked to have a wander round the place to see what it was like, but that won’t happen now.
With luck, more info will be forthcoming tomorrow about a covid test.
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Post by bixaorellana on Aug 25, 2020 17:17:48 GMT
Good grief, Mark -- it seems like every time hope is dangled in front of you, some evil genie snatches it back.
In the midst of a pandemic, the fact that a covid test can't be produced on demand is just loony.
Strongly hoping that luck strikes tomorrow and the your brother might be on his way to the new facility.
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Post by kerouac2 on Aug 25, 2020 18:00:00 GMT
Well, at a place like my mother's facility, there was ALWAYS an attendant controlling the electric entry door. Some people (no more than about 20 out of 130) had the right to go out at will, but the others were never allowed out unaccompanied. Some people were watched particularly carefully to prevent them from leaving. For the first few years, my mother was one of them, but she wasn't actually trying to leave even if she spent hours at the entrance. She was just waiting for me, the way certain dogs do.
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Post by casimira on Aug 25, 2020 20:35:30 GMT
You probably know all this but, I'm going to chime in and say it anyway. Once the staff, and, in this case the social worker knows that there is a family member who is a force to be reckoned with (you), and they know this person is an advocate for his brother's best interest, generally, they back off and realize, ok we have someone here who knows what he is doing and we can't take advantage of this case anymore and yes, we will cooperate with his wishes as he deems fit. I had to go through this with my husband four years ago when he was in the rehab facility and miserable as all get out. I was the one who had to pull all the strings and advocate on his behalf to get him out of there as soon as I could. A friend and I arranged to take him out on a "pass" for a few hours to determine the level of capability that T had. Once I did that I was then armed and ready the next day, a Monday, to call and speak with the social worker and tell her that I had all the necessary paperwork and had made all the proper arrangements necessary to allow them that day to do what they had to do and I would be there on Tuesday at 10a.m. to come and pick him up. Most facilities (here, anyway) are unaccustomed to having to act efficiently until they encounter family and other persons who have any kind of savvy and know the right lingo that makes them have to get their act together and maybe actually work. I saw so many families who had loved ones in that facility that were being railroaded into keeping their family member there until "they" said it was "time". I'm sure they were glad to see me gone as they had witnessed me talking to family members in the day room and were saying to themselves, uh oh, there she goes again. It was the most helpless, powerless kind of feeling to see what these places were doing to exhaust families of every nickel and dime they had to care for their loved one.
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Post by onlyMark on Aug 25, 2020 20:55:29 GMT
Good story Casi, it shows how the 'system' is not always focussed on the benefit of the person, rather the establishment involved to make life easy(ier) for them. The balance is to judge what you do or say so that people involved don't decide to start throwing road blocks up but actually do the right thing even though it takes a bit of effort. I have come across social workers who do the best they can and they think of the person rather than the work they need to do, not all are somewhat lax in doing what they should. I know eventually they will get there, but just not fast enough in this case for me. I've never come across one yet who says they don't have enough work to do. It can be a god forsaken occupation. I find great difficulty in waiting for something to happen when I suspect it should have or could have already happened.
Then again, being nice and the carrot rather than the stick approach probably has benefits as well, it's just not a tactic I'm particularly well versed in and thus lack any skill at. I try it on Mrs M when I want her to do something I can't be bothered to, but she always sees through me and the phrase 'what did your last servant die of' often gets said. My reply is usually 'hard work', then I get up and do it myself. The stick approach never works either and if I tried it I'd wake up one morning dead.
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Post by lagatta on Aug 26, 2020 0:35:18 GMT
I wonder if he even realises he's in a prison.
Mich, I'm not surprised, as there is a terrible amount of substance abuse and untreated mental illness in small and smallish towns in cities. (Mich's city is far from the larger ones in Ontario - Beautiful nature, though).
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Post by mickthecactus on Aug 26, 2020 6:35:15 GMT
"Hard work" is the wrong answer. It should be "boredom".
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Post by fumobici on Aug 26, 2020 15:03:29 GMT
Good story Casi, it shows how the 'system' is not always focussed on the benefit of the person, rather the establishment involved to make life easy(ier) for them. Here in the US, it's even worse than the system making life easier for them, far worse. Here, the goal is to extort as much money from the victims as possible. Too often it's not a health care system but a sick, criminal extortion racket. Which is completely inevitable given human nature, and a for-profit system.
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Post by questa on Aug 26, 2020 15:05:06 GMT
I favour "Insubordination"
Thanks Mark for the update. I was thinking of you both a week ago and wondering if Rob was coping with the changed world.Being a Social worker is a hell of a job, you can rarely win and have a long list of unsatisfied clients.You have given them positive treatment and that possibly helped your case along as well as it has. Is Rob still off the grog?
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Post by kerouac2 on Aug 26, 2020 15:09:56 GMT
I had also been wondering about the current situation but asking outright would have been both impolite and unpleasant. I'm just relieved that he has apparently not deteriorated before even worrying about his future.
There is nothing shameful about having moved on to adult diapers but of course it is better when you realise that you need them rather than being told by somebody else that they are necessary.
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Post by onlyMark on Aug 26, 2020 15:15:23 GMT
fumobici, I caught an article whereby a woman advised whenever you had medical treatment and were presented with the bill, to ask for an itemised bill and most often suddenly it became cheaper as they felt it best for you to not see how they charged five hundred dollars for wheeling you to an x-ray. Any truth in that tactic?
questa, I know it wouldn't be impossible, but as he, until Friday, is still in the medical wing of the prison I expect he's had none at all.
K2, no problem in asking. My story of him, as with your mother, is an open book.
Update - phoned the social worker at the prison this morning as to if they knew about the covid test being needed. She says they did and yesterday had organised one. The sample cannot be tested though at the prison and is sent off to a lab somewhere. She emphasised the urgency for a quick result. She also said that so far they've had no covid at the prison at all so is expecting a negative test. But ---------
What happens in the unlikely event it is positive at the last minute? I think many would accept it is unlikely and cross that bridge when they came to it. For me though, as with packing my car out with probably unnecessary stuff when I go out into the desert, I have to consider it as a) do I feel confident I can come up with an ideal solution on the spur of the moment? (Answer, no. In reality, yes probably, but psychologically I am always amazed about those who can instantly decide on good answer to an immediate problem and half of me says I'm not capable of it) and b) being a pessimist (I think of a pessimist as being and optimist with experience) no matter how rare the chance, now I've thought of it, I've got to plan for it.
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Post by mickthecactus on Aug 26, 2020 15:59:54 GMT
I read this in awe. Not sure I could do it.
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Post by onlyMark on Aug 26, 2020 17:12:17 GMT
You could Mick. As needs must.
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Post by casimira on Aug 26, 2020 17:17:08 GMT
Fumobici "nailed it" with regard to how it works or rather doesn't work here. I would venture to say that if I were to go to that rehab place today, there would be people who are still there and will be until the day they die. My "maid of honor" from our wedding is one of them. I went to visit her quite a bit early on but, when COVID hit they of course, didn't allow any visitation. During my last visit there she had become a kind of "pet" for the staff and they let her sit at the front desk and greet people. Her mind is "gone". I took photos there of days gone by and she had brief moments of lucidity but was in and out of it for the most part. Anyway, I kept records of everything, (I remember my asking at the hospital for a release of information form and them asking, what for? I told them it was none of their business.) I got it on a disc as it covered a period of three months. I took pleasure in seeing their paranoia.) The hospital had given me only 72 hours notice to find a place to transfer him to as he wasn't strong enough yet to come home. This was my way of paying them back for their ineptitude. Surely, they could have known somewhere along the line that his discharge date was coming sooner than this. "According to my records" became my opening line in all my conversations with these f'ers. And, it would boggle anyone's mind to see the costs accrued over time for tiny things such as a tablet of aspirin.
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Post by htmb on Aug 26, 2020 18:03:23 GMT
You could Mick. As needs must. It’s amazing what a person can accomplish when they are challenged. Best to be prepared as well as possible, and that sounds like what you’re all about, Mark. Good luck with everything.
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Post by kerouac2 on Aug 26, 2020 18:20:25 GMT
I would tell my stories at the office, and one of my colleagues would always say "I could never do any of that." Her mother was already 5 years older than mine and in better shape. Well, that didn't last and she quickly discovered what she could do for her mother and was soon telling the same stories.
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Post by mickthecactus on Aug 26, 2020 18:39:13 GMT
You could Mick. As needs must. Probably but not sure about a foreign country.
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Post by casimira on Aug 26, 2020 19:14:21 GMT
I know you would Mick. And, with family and friends for support you would do just fine. I was fortunate enough to have a "posse" of sorts that I limited to five people. They included both and fortunately for me, one was a nurse and she lived in Hawaii so there was the added benefit of being in another time zone and advise me as to what questions to ask. Another was a researcher and another a doctor. All had their strong suits and would answer questions I had no idea how to answer. I also did not have a computer at that time because I had cracked the screen accidentally one day early on. This turned out to be a blessing in disguise because I think I would have gone a bit crazy looking up stuff and getting information overloaded. The posse was able to do all that for me.
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Post by questa on Aug 27, 2020 4:39:39 GMT
You could Mick. As needs must. You could and you would, Mick. It is not until knee deep in mini-problems that people can recognise how far they have come with the bigger ones.No capes or medals, but they are still heroic.
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Post by lagatta on Aug 27, 2020 15:38:29 GMT
I want to make sure nobody ever has to due such things for/to me. The right to die/advanced directives have improved drastically in Canada, but the system is still far from perfect.
By the way, I have NO desire to die whatsoever at present, on the contrary, unless I am suddenly struck by a condition/accident that would destroy my mental capacity or ability to function. I just want the same right as my cat has not to be kept "alive" as a non-functional thing.
The system is infinitely better in Canada, the UK and several other countries, but there are still big holes in it as well as underfunding and privatisation by stealth.
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