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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 8, 2020 17:49:46 GMT
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 8, 2020 17:50:41 GMT
So how many were murdered by the police and how many died of other causes out of that figure? Nobody knows what happens behind the closed doors of a police station.
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Post by onlyMark on Jun 8, 2020 17:54:46 GMT
Of course. That's true. You may never know how many of these deaths were police murders and covered up. That's probably why the article says, "...it is impossible to know exactly how many people die at the hands of police officers in the US each year" But if that many do die in custody, there is certainly something very wrong there.
"Statistical comparisons show that police in the US typically shoot, arrest and imprison more people than similarly developed nations." That's true enough.
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Post by onlyMark on Jun 8, 2020 18:07:20 GMT
K2, the graphic posted at reply number 60, it's not in that article. Where's that from? With that wording? The statistics and numbers in the article for the USA are terrible.
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Post by onlyMark on Jun 8, 2020 18:27:22 GMT
I enjoy statistics. From that graphic is shows that the proportion of black people in prison in the USA is a bit under three times the proportion of black people in the population, whereas as the proportion in prison in the UK is four times the proportion of black people general population. Never knew that.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 8, 2020 18:30:41 GMT
K2, the graphic posted at reply number 60, it's not in that article. Where's that from? With that wording? The statistics and numbers in the article for the USA are terrible. It's what appears in the title of the article on the CNN site.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 8, 2020 18:48:01 GMT
Gee, I wonder if Dave and his friends are going to put Amazon out of business. As an aside, I do wonder why the word "nigger" is more offensive than "fuck you in the ass" when a decision to censor something is made.
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Post by lagatta on Jun 8, 2020 21:56:05 GMT
The above statistics make Canada sound considerably "fairer" than the US or the UK. It is true that Canada isn't experiencing the current madness in the US, that slavery was marginal - due to climate, not "niceness", but a very large part of racist violence within Canada is directed towards Indigenous people.
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Post by fumobici on Jun 9, 2020 14:11:36 GMT
I've heard it argued that the murder of George Floyd was an individual act of racism, and that the fact Chauvin et al were charged evidence that the system works.
The existence of institutional racism however was amply borne out by the mere fact that those police felt so insulated from accountability that they were comfortable essentially doing a daylight lynching of a defenseless black man in full view of the public, and that they clearly thought they would get away with it as police have so many times before. That level of comfort can only be the result of an institutionally, deliberately racist system, there's no other plausible explanation for it. The shameless performative flagrancy of the act of lynching George Floyd while being watched and videoed was precisely what made the act so obscene and I think why it caused the reaction you are seeing.
Lynchings weren't just about individual murder, they were intended to send a message that black lives didn't matter. And when the police, as representatives of our society and government, are the ones doing it, fully expecting to have the system have their backs, it's an especially dangerous form of lawlessness. A lot deeper and more dangerous than the ephemeral lawlessness of street riots
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Post by mossie on Jun 9, 2020 14:47:33 GMT
I fully agree with that, the whole episode stinks.
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Post by Kimby on Jun 9, 2020 15:28:32 GMT
That the officers did it is bad enough. THAT THEY did it KNOWING THEY WERE BEING FILMED is beyond comprehension. Guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 9, 2020 15:35:05 GMT
The affair has resonated particularly in France because there was a death four years ago -- Adama Traoré -- which was apparently quite similar to what happened to George Floyd. To the credit of the concerned community, people have never given up on demanding justice and a real investigation (rather than the usual police cover up). The recent demonstration by a crowd of 20,000 in front of the Tribunal de Paris was officially for Adama Traoré with George Floyd as an addendum. (Sorry to have to admit this, but the majority of the black people attending were there for Adama Traoré while the white people were there for George Floyd -- in other words basically 'anti-Trump')
Nevertheless, when there is a reasonable convergence of goals, that's all right in my book.
In any case, it worked. There is a new investigation into the death of Adama Traoré as well as government promises for greater vigilance concerning police activities. At the moment, the police unions are totally indignant ("no problem with us -- we're wonderful"), but everybody knows there is a big problem, so even in France things will advance thanks to the George Floyd affair.
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Post by tod2 on Jun 9, 2020 16:27:12 GMT
An article has been written by a South African living in America, and made known to Americans. It shocked me. How can we be so blind in our own country. "On Saturday, June 6th, Cyril Ramaphosa, the President of South Africa, made a speech about 'Equality' and essentially about White Privilege'. He had the gall to get up on his Broad Based Black Economic Empowerment High horse and tell the world how the "Corona Virus and George Floyd" moment was the time for Black people to Rise up against racism and reclaim their dignity, but, back at home, he calls the death of a black man, Collins Khosa, who was beaten to death by black policemen, for drinking a beer during lockdown, regrettable, and Collins Khosa's murderers got off scot-free. Nobody marched and told us that his life mattered. Eleven black people have died at the hands of Black South African police and military personnel during the first month of Covid-19 Lockdown, with the excuse that they were violating the lockdown regulations. No-one marched or told us that their lives matter."
The article goes further with more shocking content but you can read that on social media should you wish to be informed more widely about our situation in South Africa.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 9, 2020 16:43:53 GMT
It is perfectly true that in many countries, there is no need to find another race to kill. One's own race will do, as long as they are from another community or different social standing.
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Post by lagatta on Jun 9, 2020 16:47:26 GMT
Yes, and we knew Ramaphosa was a populist blowhard. Those come in all colours: there is a dilly in the Philippines.
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Post by mickthecactus on Jun 9, 2020 16:52:21 GMT
I was listening to a radio phone in this afternoon when a woman of colour (is coloured woman no longer acceptable?) said exactly what K2 said.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 9, 2020 16:54:21 GMT
I absolutely do not understand the utility of that formulation either. It is ridiculous.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jun 9, 2020 16:58:46 GMT
The existence of institutional racism however was amply borne out by the mere fact that those police felt so insulated from accountability that they were comfortable essentially doing a daylight lynching of a defenseless black man in full view of the public, and that they clearly thought they would get away with it as police have so many times before. That level of comfort can only be the result of an institutionally, deliberately racist system, there's no other plausible explanation for it. The shameless performative flagrancy of the act of lynching George Floyd while being watched and videoed was precisely what made the act so obscene and I think why it caused the reaction you are seeing. Lynchings weren't just about individual murder, they were intended to send a message that black lives didn't matter. And when the police, as representatives of our society and government, are the ones doing it, fully expecting to have the system have their backs, it's an especially dangerous form of lawlessness. A lot deeper and more dangerous than the ephemeral lawlessness of street riots I'm just quoting you here, Fummobic, because your post was so succinctly perfect. If I were to add anything, it would be after the first sentence in your second paragraph. That would be to add that lynchings (and other non-physical aggression) were there to remind Black people that not only did their lives not matter, but that their very existence was dependent on Whites allowing them to live if they behaved to White satisfaction. The affair has resonated particularly in France because there was a death four years ago -- Adama Traoré -- which was apparently quite similar to what happened to George Floyd. To the credit of the concerned community, people have never given up on demanding justice and a real investigation (rather than the usual police cover up). The recent demonstration by a crowd of 20,000 in front of the Tribunal de Paris was officially for Adama Traoré with George Floyd as an addendum. (Sorry to have to admit this, but the majority of the black people attending were there for Adama Traoré while the white people were there for George Floyd -- in other words basically 'anti-Trump') Nevertheless, when there is a reasonable convergence of goals, that's all right in my book. In any case, it worked. There is a new investigation into the death of Adama Traoré as well as government promises for greater vigilance concerning police activities. At the moment, the police unions are totally indignant ("no problem with us -- we're wonderful"), but everybody knows there is a big problem, so even in France things will advance thanks to the George Floyd affair. As you say, there was a "reasonable convergence of goals". What matters is that people chose to show up in order to break complacency over police behavior. As far as those who were there because they're anti-Trump, that would pretty much be anyone invested in general equality for citizens of all countries. Good news about the new investigation. An article has been written by a South African living in America, and made known to Americans. It shocked me. How can we be so blind in our own country. "On Saturday, June 6th, Cyril Ramaphosa, the President of South Africa, made a speech about 'Equality' and essentially about White Privilege'. He had the gall to get up on his Broad Based Black Economic Empowerment High horse and tell the world how the "Corona Virus and George Floyd" moment was the time for Black people to Rise up against racism and reclaim their dignity, but, back at home, he calls the death of a black man, Collins Khosa, who was beaten to death by black policemen, for drinking a beer during lockdown, regrettable, and Collins Khosa's murderers got off scot-free. Nobody marched and told us that his life mattered. Eleven black people have died at the hands of Black South African police and military personnel during the first month of Covid-19 Lockdown, with the excuse that they were violating the lockdown regulations. No-one marched or told us that their lives matter." Ramphosa craftily chose to put the emphasis on racism, but at the same time to ignore how much these international protests are about the pervasively toxic police culture.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 9, 2020 19:47:15 GMT
provocateur?
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Post by lagatta on Jun 10, 2020 0:22:19 GMT
He's still in hospital after extensive bleeding from an ear. Possible concussion. This can easily kill someone his age (who is far from incapacitated but does have some underlying health problems). Trump is trying to defame him by calling him an antifa (which simply means antifascist). Should we be calling Trump a fa?
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Post by spaceneedle on Jun 10, 2020 9:47:39 GMT
Just stopping by for a few Pacific Northwest updates. Protesters have taken control of an area of Seattle east of downtown. They have also gained control over the East precinct of the Seattle police station which was emptied of its contents yesterday and essentially abandoned by the police. Protesters are now guarding the area with guns. (What could possibly go wrong?) Tonight Kshama Swant, the controversial Seattle city council member used her keys to City Hall to allow protesters inside after hours. She is a very polarizing figure for some and has called for the Mayor of Seattle to resign. Many people of color are calling Sawant out for trying to use this situation as a political opportunity for herself. I guess we will see how that shakes out. www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/seattle-area-protests-live-updates-for-tuesday-june-9/#update-12841897Meanwhile, I dread the Covid numbers that will roll in over the next two weeks, which is also coinciding with some re-openings of services/restaurants and businesses here.
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Post by casimira on Jun 10, 2020 13:13:20 GMT
I fear the same will happen here Space Needle.
This past weekend there was a huge demonstration here in NOLA. About 2 thousand people filled up Jackson Square in the French Quarter.
In the video I saw, the demonstrators stood so closely together, crammed in what in what is not a very big space as far as the eye could see.
It was very alarming to me and all I could think was WTF are these people thinking?
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Post by fumobici on Jun 10, 2020 17:49:41 GMT
Just stopping by for a few Pacific Northwest updates. Protesters have taken control of an area of Seattle east of downtown. They have also gained control over the East precinct of the Seattle police station which was emptied of its contents yesterday and essentially abandoned by the police. Protesters are now guarding the area with guns. (What could possibly go wrong?) Tonight Kshama Swant, the controversial Seattle city council member used her keys to City Hall to allow protesters inside after hours. She is a very polarizing figure for some and has called for the Mayor of Seattle to resign. Many people of color are calling Sawant out for trying to use this situation as a political opportunity for herself. I guess we will see how that shakes out. www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/seattle-area-protests-live-updates-for-tuesday-june-9/#update-12841897Meanwhile, I dread the Covid numbers that will roll in over the next two weeks, which is also coinciding with some re-openings of services/restaurants and businesses here. The situations at the East Precinct and City Hall are/were peaceful. The City Hall protestors peacefully left around 2 AM per the TV news. I haven't seen any images of armed protestors, just white nationalists sometimes acting as provocateurs like the guy in the car that ran into the protest who actually shot a protestor.
Sawant is ideologically very consistent, and her letting the protestors into the building feels very much to me to be ideologically rather than opportunistically motivated . I think having left hard-liners like Sawant is important in getting the US Overton Window back to something like the norms in the developed world. The US political so-called left are experts at preemptive surrender. Coincidentally perhaps, they are frequently paid by the donor class that owns them to surrender. It is ordinarily and misleadingly rationalized publicly as trying to win over suburban professional Republicans or to "reach across the aisle".
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Post by bixaorellana on Jun 10, 2020 18:27:54 GMT
It is ordinarily and misleadingly rationalized publicly as trying to win over suburban professional Republicans or to "reach across the aisle". Otherwise known as "whoring".
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Post by spaceneedle on Jun 10, 2020 23:45:12 GMT
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Post by mickthecactus on Jun 15, 2020 15:01:18 GMT
I read an article at the weekend which referred to "non binary women of colour".
I'm lost....
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 15, 2020 15:20:10 GMT
And I read an article by a black biracial man who said that his black biracial children are lucky because they don't look black. I am appalled that someone who has a white mother and who has a white wife would still consider his pale children to be morally black. Apparent the "one drop" doctrine is alive and well in 2020.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jun 15, 2020 16:05:06 GMT
I understand the point you're making, but what does "morally black" mean?
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 15, 2020 16:10:55 GMT
I don't know. You people living in the countries that love ethnic labels will have to debate that point.
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Post by htmb on Jun 15, 2020 17:11:51 GMT
I don’t understand your point, Kerouac, but I also haven’t read the article.
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