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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 4:00:13 GMT
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Post by mickthecactus on Sept 3, 2015 7:45:17 GMT
How awful. How sad.
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Post by bjd on Sept 3, 2015 9:33:04 GMT
Meanwhile, politicians are dithering, worried about right-wing parties gaining popularity.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 11:26:22 GMT
And there is a worldwide debate about whether The Independent and other media should have published that photo. Probably a lot of people would prefer a photo of a basket of kittens to support the cause.
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Post by bjd on Sept 3, 2015 14:17:37 GMT
The BBC website has a photo of a Turkish policemen carrying the body, with the child unidentifiable. They did add that the boy's 5 year-old brother and mother also died.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 14:17:59 GMT
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Post by fumobici on Sept 3, 2015 14:55:47 GMT
So heart wrenchingly sad. The ugly truth is there is no effective corrective that can be applied now from the EU side to this sad exodus except simple compassion and kindness. Bellicose neocon foreign policies have so broken and destabilized the Middle East and the Maghreb that a refugee outflow is inevitable. And there's nothing to do about it really, you break it; you buy it. You can thank Bush/Cheney and Blair for your predicament or you can pretend its not the fault of their policies, but either way they are coming and there's really nothing that can be done to stem the flow. It'd be nice to see that trio brought before charges at The Hague to face responsibility for what they caused, because future leaders must be forced to consider their personal responsibility when spreading chaos and violence abroad to score cheap political points at home.
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Post by mickthecactus on Sept 3, 2015 15:31:31 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34142512This, along with the writing on the hands by Czech police is horribly reminiscent of the cattle trucks used to transport the Jews to the Concentration camps. Somebody needs to get a grip on this.
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Post by onlyMark on Sept 3, 2015 18:53:20 GMT
An article today somewhere made me ponder about why the Gulf States aren't offering more. Possibly they realise few wish to go there as opposed to Europe.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 19:03:34 GMT
That's exactly that the Front National was saying in France today. "They're Muslims, so they should be accepted by the Gulf states." But nobody wants to go to the Gulf states, even when they are desperate.
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Post by whatagain on Sept 3, 2015 19:38:32 GMT
Front National proposals to bring back the migrants from where they came is in my opinion like sending back to Germany Jews that would have escaped from Auschwitz in 1943. If migrants put their 3 years old kid on a boat to go to Europe, it can only be to escape hell... FN adherents really think that you risk your life just to avoid paying some taxes or because you are given halal food instead of pork at noon in schools ? (Fn faiche.)
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Post by lagatta on Sept 4, 2015 0:29:00 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 5:03:34 GMT
It is strange how sometimes a tiny closeup of an ongoing drama can change the face of the world -- at least, that's what I'm hoping will happen this time.
During the first huge tragedy in Lampedusa in Autumn 2013 when 700 people drowned together, the world just shrugged its shoulders and swept it under the carpet. I'm sure there were plenty of small children in that group.
Since yesterday, Merkel and Hollande are trying to propose permanent and obligatory quotas for all of the countries of the EU to take in refugees. Unfortunately, it isn't that easy even if even the most hard line EU countries have softened their positions after seeing the photo. The refugees normally have their sights set on specific countries and would not like to have a place like Latvia or Bulgaria imposed on them. Somehow, the old adage "beggars can't be choosers" has become completely obsolete.
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Post by mickthecactus on Sept 4, 2015 12:12:43 GMT
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 4, 2015 15:26:40 GMT
In my ignorance, I was surprised by how many Syrians I ran into in Turkey -- almost all young men who didn't want to go into the army there and were supported by their families in their decision to leave. I only talked to one of them at any length, and he was leaving the next day to head toward Germany. I've often wondered if he made it. The emergency donation site to which I just tried to give money has crashed. I suppose that can possibly be considered to be good news. This is from this morning's The Guardian online & may be of interest to some: www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/03/refugee-crisis-what-can-you-do-to-help?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 4, 2015 16:09:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 18:16:17 GMT
The French film Welcome is more than 5 years old and already addressed the problem back then. As in most countries, helping illegal aliens is a criminal offense in France, but the public reaction to this movie at least made the government stop prosecuting people for this incredible "offense." Yet the situation only gets worse and worse.
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 5, 2015 18:41:36 GMT
I have been glued to the news today, as the situation seems to change by the hour. Cameron is taking in @4000 people, but apparently only Syrians. The US needs to offer sanctuary, as well. Hard not to shake your head & snort cynically when reading this essay from 2013. (& yes, I am aware of what kind of a publication this is) -- nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/america-must-take-more-syrian-refugees-9457
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 19:06:53 GMT
Today, there were demonstrations supporting the refugees in Paris, Toulouse, Strasbourg. People are also organising rooms in homes and flats where they can take in refugees, and a few towns in France have offered official municipal housing. Yet it appears that France will only take in 100,000 refugees, which is pitiful compared to 800,000 in Germany. I hope that things continue to evolve.
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 5, 2015 22:02:32 GMT
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Post by lagatta on Sept 5, 2015 22:50:58 GMT
We've also had a demonstration here in Montréal and there have been others in many Canadian cities, large and small. I couldn't attend but several friends have, including people who were themselves refugees, from Iran, war-battered Lebanon, Argentina and Chile and other places. All these people have remade their lives. One of my friends who is a refugee from Morocco under Hassan 2 has not only worked and brought up a family, she has three daughters, two of whom hold professional jobs, and the third is still a student at Université de Montréal.
Sadly, her husband who was tortured for years there has died recently, back "home" in Morocco. He was coping fine and invested in work and family, but something cracked and everything went under.
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Post by questa on Sept 6, 2015 0:39:10 GMT
For years Australia has had refugees island=hopping from all the usual war-torn places to a perceived haven here. After some incidents of small boats capsizing with fatalities our current Government adopted a "Turn back the boats" policy and positioned Navy vessels to board, search and examine the boats for seaworthiness. If not OK the boat was replaced with a rubber lifeboat, the people given provisions and escorted back to their last point of departure...usually Indonesia.
Refugees who arrived before this policy are cooped up in detention centres on inhospitable islands for many years, going mad and never knowing if they will be sent back to what is left of their country.
Most ozzies are ashamed and angry about this. Our PM has received a blast from international leaders and there is a bye election coming up soon which may cause his government to crash over this issue. What is happening in Europe makes our numbers insignificant but people aren't numbers.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2015 6:44:23 GMT
French public opinion is divided about 50/50 on accepting the refugees, which makes me a bit ashamed since not so terribly long ago (1962), France accepted a mixture of 1 million French and Arab refugees from Algeria, and in 1939 it accepted more than 500,000 Spanish republicans even though it was busy preparing for war with Germany. And now people are whimpering about accepting 30,000 extra refugees this year. A lot of them are saying "we only want Christian refugees." They would be the first to scream bloody murder if they themselves became refugees and were rejected because of their religion.
Luckily, there is the other 50% of the population which is preparing to accept these people with open arms.
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Post by bjd on Sept 8, 2015 9:13:16 GMT
It's worse than you say, Kerouac. I heard on the news yesterday that 55% of the French don't want to accept any refugees. This is shameful. I don't believe that all these people are National Front supporters, so there must be something else at play.
I'm not sure you can compare the reception of 1962, since Algeria was considered part of France at the time. And many of the Spanish Republicans were put in camps in southern France at the time -- not exactly an open-armed welcome then either. France is best at accepting dictators with lots of money, like Baby Doc Duvalier. I'm always horrified to learn about discredited politicians and dictators being allowed to live in France.
Interestingly, this morning's International NY Times has an article with an interview with a couple of Eritreans who made it to Sweden in 2013. Neither of them is very happy with how things turned out, despite the money they are paid every month (over $700). They are disappointed with "Europe", with the Swedes, but incapable of saying what they thought they would be reaching after long and expensive journeys from Eritrea. But both said that it's pointless saying anything to people in Eritrea setting out and asking whether they should try to come to Europe -- they won't listen anyway.
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 8, 2015 14:33:14 GMT
That is interesting, Bjd.
The case of the Eritreans probably points out difficulties that refugees might have that would be less likely to affect migrants-by-choice. I would assume that people desperate enough to flee their own countries and cultures probably only have the concept of safety to pin on the host country, with any number of unformulated expectations doomed to disappointment.
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 8, 2015 16:29:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2015 16:51:10 GMT
I'm not sure you can compare the reception of 1962, since Algeria was considered part of France at the time. And many of the Spanish Republicans were put in camps in southern France at the time -- not exactly an open-armed welcome then either. France is best at accepting dictators with lots of money, like Baby Doc Duvalier. I'm always horrified to learn about discredited politicians and dictators being allowed to live in France. Every refugee situation is unique, but the refugees of 1962 did not have it much easier than any other refugee. The vast majority had no family in France since most of the Algerian French had been living there since the mid-19th century, and the metropolitan French absolutely did not appreciate their arrival on the European continent even if there was nothing they could do about it, since they had French citizenship and also the considerable advantage of having full administrative documentation, which is something that is often sorely lacking with 21st century refugees. There was no place for them to live, no jobs for them, inadequate schools. They had left very good living conditions in Algeria and found themselves at the bottom of the social ladder in France. And as for the harkis, they were rejected everywhere and survived only because they were willing to accept the most horrible jobs. The Poles and Italians and Spaniards who had arrived in France a few decades earlier totally spurned everybody from Algeria and resented them for having a few social advantages due to their nationality. As for the Spanish republicans, yes they lived in camps just like refugees everywhere. I don't think there are any countries other than China and now Spain (!) that have vast empty housing developments where lots of people could be put if there were any political desire to do so. Turkey has more than 2 million Syrian refugees living in camps that are far from luxurious, and nobody is complaining about their conditions, since they have the greatest luxury of all -- not being killed for no reason. I don't know if France is best for accepting rich dictators. Duvalier was the most famous creepy resident of France, but look where Marcos, Ben Ali, Mobutu, Idi Amin or others went. www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/11/06/assad-exile-dictators-syria_n_2081708.htmlHowever, I don't think it is all that appropriate to put them in the same category as normal refugees.
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Post by bjd on Sept 8, 2015 18:30:17 GMT
I agree about the dictators. It's just that you often hear of wealthy dictators on the Côte d'Azur or in their fancy Paris mansions, being treated in French hospitals when in their own countries, the hospitals stink. But that is not the subject here, just something that annoys me. About the pieds noirs from Algeria. I know quite a few -- many settled here in the south, and they still resent the way they were treated by France and the French. My street has only a few houses on it, but half of them are lived in by (of course old by now) French people from Algeria. There are still associations, discussion groups, etc. in this area. The camps in southern France where Spanish Republicans were kept were not just refugee camps. They were prison camps. A famous one is Le Vernet in Ariège. le vernetThis said, I just watched the news on France 24 and the scenes of people carrying babies and small children running from the Hungarian police at the border with Serbia, while photographers and people with cell phones are trying to film them is really disturbing.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2015 19:37:39 GMT
Small footnote: most refugee camps can be considered to be prison camps. Obviously, people who are considered to be dangerous or questionable are subject to stricter control. Every country is the same about this. It would be quite naive to think otherwise. It is interesting to read an article from the fluffy People magazine from 1980.
Impossible to post the link, so just enter this into Google: Plagued by Heat, Crime and Snafus, the Fort Chaffee Refugee Camp Becomes An American Nightmare
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 11:03:44 GMT
Well, things are beginning to evolve. Public support for welcoming the refugees has jumped 9 points this week, and there is now a solid majority for helping them.
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