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Post by onlymark on Mar 21, 2011 16:30:56 GMT
Jeez, we're getting no where with this deyana. You are so far wrong in what you say, especially as to why I don't live in the UK and as to colour influencing whether you can complain or not that it is laughable.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 16:42:15 GMT
laughable, really. Maybe one day you should try and take your family over there to live for some good length of time, put your kids in the average school system there. No posh boarding schools or select schools. See what they come across and then come on here and harp on about how fed up you are of people of color complaining about the UK. How convenient for you, that you will probably never have to do that and so face reality.
You've found a way to live, where you don't have to face some of the harsh realities of life, nor do your family. Well, good for you. But some of us, cannot so easily bury our heads in the sand, whether the issues still affect us or not. What's it called now? Oh yeah, it's called having a conscience and your eyes wide open.
You really don't have much of clue, you are going by what you know from your younger years of living in the country. And you are very biased, because as a white male, you've probably had some very positive experiences of the country. It would be a different story to go there and try and live there now with your colored family, believe me.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 21, 2011 17:09:08 GMT
You miss the point entirely. Colour has nothing to do with it. Having a connection to a country where the abuses of the police and discrimination are extremely worse and then ignoring that is. My eyes are wide enough open to see that.
It is wrong in the UK, it does happen, I've said that over and over again, I've acknowledged that and not buried my head in the sand. And yet you are guilty of exactly what you accuse me of. You complain about the UK and skip over what is a far worse situation in India.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 21, 2011 17:11:38 GMT
You have a right to complain, again as I have said, if it happens but don't you consider at all what it might be like had your family remained in India?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 17:16:50 GMT
Like I've pointed out to you previously (and you seemed to overlook this). I was five years old when I came over to the UK. Pray, tell, what do you want to me do about the injustices in India? What do I know about the country to do anything at this point in time? My connection are to the UK, I have family and friends who live there, I don't believe I can do much about the injustices in UK either. but I can mention them, because at least I know about them, the ones in India I have no personal experience with, although of course I am aware of them.
The point is if I were a white person pointing out these facts about the UK, you would not bring India into it at all. Even though, I know many white people know more about India then I do. It's a cheap shot on your part. If all else fails, just point out that they come from a much worse place and so can shut up or at least stop complaining about the country they have live in. Well, no I won't.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 17:28:39 GMT
You have a right to complain, again as I have said, if it happens but don't you consider at all what it might be like had your family remained in India? Man, you come out with the same things as so many people in the UK have done in the past. So in another words my life would have been much worse in India and so I should be thanking my lucky stars that I was able to move to the wonderful UK and at least have food to eat. tell me, is that what you well one day tell your kids? Be grateful for what you have, for I could have left you in that South American dump to starve? It must nice being born white and sitting on your high horse, feeling all superior about yourself. You didn't do anything to deserve being born into a home where everything was provided of you, where you didn't have to face discrimination and racism, it was just a matter of luck. Nothing to be proud of, Mark. My admiration goes to people who have made something of their lives, against all the odds.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 21, 2011 17:37:59 GMT
Are you being racist deyana?
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Post by onlymark on Mar 21, 2011 17:43:14 GMT
Are you criticising me because I'm white? With attitudes and ways different to yours?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 17:55:12 GMT
I'm just pointing how you come across. Nothing more.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 21, 2011 17:56:37 GMT
And do you think I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth and come from a privileged background? And live in an expat community not surrounded by Egyptians. And did I not marry a 'foreigner' and adopt three 'ethnic' kids? And leave school with virtually no qualifications and made something better of myself?
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Post by fumobici on Mar 21, 2011 17:57:08 GMT
I find Deyana's criticisms completely justifiable. Her being of Indian ethnicity does nothing to make her responsible for defending the social injustices in a country that is foreign to her and to bring up those injustices as a criticism of her viewpoint based on that ethnicity is to introduce a deliberately incendiary irrelevancy.
We entitled white males have little justification for passing summary judgement on those who don't enjoy the same privileges and advantages we are accustomed to. It's quite as unsavory as rich people criticizing the choices the poor are forced into. Even when our criticisms are based on fact, the social context renders our criticisms to some degree intrinsically arrogant and unfair. On questions of privilege and fairness, the opinions of those disadvantaged always carry far more weight than our own. Or at least should.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 17:59:51 GMT
You were born into a much more privileged household than some, yes. That's your trump card. In that "I can say what I want about people of other races, because I have a foreigners in my family." You use this because you know some will excuse you for what you say because of it. You're not the first white man to use this stance, and probably will not be the last.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 18:04:01 GMT
Thank you, fumobici. I knew there was a reason why I always admired your views so much. They make sense.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 18:07:47 GMT
I think that I am extremely lucky to live in a neighbourhood that is so ethnically mixed that I am not even sure what the majority group is. I think it is that fact that there is no dominant group is what makes it "work" -- the business people as well as the criminals can be from any group.
One good thing that is happening is that the local public schools are becoming more mixed again. For about 10 years, the ethnic French had deserted them for private schools, but now they are coming back.
There is hope after all.
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Post by bixaorellana on Mar 21, 2011 18:14:44 GMT
Those are good signs, Kerouac. And you make the important point that "mixing" brings people together, as they stop fixating on differences between various groups.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 21, 2011 18:16:58 GMT
So I am hiding my prejudices behind other things? And you cannot be challenged, even though relatively you were born into a more privileged family than many, because you are not white? A white person cannot challenge any ethnic group because what they say carries more weight than what I do by default?
Which brings us full circle back to a point a few pages back that in the UK the culture is that now you cannot say anything negative about any group who are not white, non disabled, hetrosexual or any other nationality for fear of being branded.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 21, 2011 18:18:07 GMT
I missed what k2 and bixa said, my reply was tardy.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 21, 2011 18:22:09 GMT
Even when our criticisms are based on fact, the social context renders our criticisms to some degree intrinsically arrogant and unfair. Perfectly well said. No matter if the criticism is based on fact, the facts don't speak for themselves and it is masked by a cry of racism.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 21, 2011 18:36:43 GMT
Her being of Indian ethnicity does nothing to make her responsible for defending the social injustices in a country that is foreign to her and to bring up those injustices as a criticism of her viewpoint based on that ethnicity is to introduce a deliberately incendiary irrelevancy. An irrelevancy would have been if I had done this with e.g. pygmys in the Congo, meaning something totally alien to her that has no connection at all. I cannot countenance the fact that someone complains of racism when their own race practise it far worse. Don't you find that paradoxical? I also find it so that I am deemed to be privileged and racist virtually automatically because I am white and for no other reason but it is not right to say the same of another race when their race exhibits more discrimination than you can shake a stick at, connection or no connection.
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Post by fumobici on Mar 21, 2011 18:39:07 GMT
Her being of Indian ethnicity does nothing to make her responsible for defending the social injustices in a country that is foreign to her and to bring up those injustices as a criticism of her viewpoint based on that ethnicity is to introduce a deliberately incendiary irrelevancy. An irrelevancy would have been if I had done this with e.g. pygmys in the Congo, meaning something totally alien to her that has no connection at all. I cannot countenance the fact that someone complains of racism when their own race practise it far worse. Not at all. What about her ethnicity makes her responsible for defending social injustice on a country foreign to her? The very phrase "when her own race..." followed by an unflattering description of that "race" (I'm not sure Indians qualify as such) is in the poorest imaginable taste. Particularly when she left that place as a young child and cannot be except by the furthest stretch of reasoning be held responsible for the state of affairs there except by explicitly racist logic any more than I could be properly given credit or blame for whatever is going on in Denmark because of my own ethnic makeup. If we are to apply actual reason, you and I are essentially as much to blame for the caste system in India as Deyana. Which is to say not at all. And we are thus under equal obligation to defend it. Which is to say not at all.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 21, 2011 19:03:45 GMT
So any race, no matter what colour, can complain of racism without reference to their race? Is that how I understand your point? So if in the UK, as a white man, I complain of an incident of discrimination it is looked on the same as others? What if I did that in another country, in India, as a white man? What about in the USA? What if I had left the UK as a toddler and then gone to live in Kenya, and then complained of a racist incident there? Would my complaint be seen in isolation without reference to my actual race and its history or connections?
Nice theory but totally unrealistic.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 21, 2011 19:08:56 GMT
If I am not treated in the same way, with the same viewpoint as for an ethnic minority, in any country whether I am of the majority race or not, then I am being treated differently because of my race - which is racism.
Nice theory but totally unrealistic.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 19:18:35 GMT
fuombici, I completely agree with you. And that is the point I was trying to put across. But it is falling on deaf ears.
Where I live we have descendants from Scotland, Ireland, England, France as well as Native Indian and other races/nationalities. Some that came over as children, some who were born here. But no matter what, we are all simply 'Canadians'. The only time it seems to matter is if a person with negative racial views wants to point it out or make an issue with it. This is rare around here. In that I feel blessed to live here, we have indeed progressed.
How ludicrous it would seem to me if anything happened in France for instance, I would tell the person who is of French decent, how they are in some way responsible for it! It's laughable really. And what about my kids? They have Italian, French, Native, English, Middle Eastern and Indian blood, are they too responsible for each of these countries and what goes on there?
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Post by onlymark on Mar 21, 2011 19:20:24 GMT
I'm also tying to find where I said the phrase (as you seemingly quoted), "when her own race...." fumobici. I can't find that I said that anywhere. At least Ctrl F doesn't bring it up.
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Post by fumobici on Mar 21, 2011 19:34:11 GMT
If I am not treated in the same way, with the same viewpoint as for an ethnic minority, in any country whether I am of the majority race or not, then I am being treated differently because of my race - which is racism. Nice theory but totally unrealistic. My contention that the dominant privileged demographic- in our world that would be men of Northern European descent- have little just cause to pass judgement on racial matters is actually race/gender neutral. If by some accident of history the world had come to be dominated by Chinese women or pygmy transsexuals, the same point would stand. It isn't about any particular race but about objectivity and most of all, fairness. Those who have been the overwhelming beneficiaries of racism/sexism are the least qualified to provide meaningful critical analysis of differing viewpoints of that racism/sexism. Thus men are pretty much unqualified to speak defensively on sexism, heterosexuals are similarly in no position to pontificate about discrimination based on sexual orientation and N Euros such as myself are in my view pretty much presumptively disqualified from disparaging other ethnicities or making appeals to unfairness based on ethnicity. As the winners, we lack the objectivity and moral authority to disparage the losers.
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Post by fumobici on Mar 21, 2011 19:39:52 GMT
I'm also tying to find where I said the phrase (as you seemingly quoted), "when her own race...." fumobici. I can't find that I said that anywhere. At least Ctrl F doesn't bring it up. "cannot countenance the fact that someone complains of racism when their own race practise it far worse." It was "their" rather than "her" preceding the irrelevant and disparaging racial comment. My apologies.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 21, 2011 19:51:49 GMT
So in review the main points are -
You cannot say anyone who is not white in the UK is doing certain things without the danger of it looking like you are tarring them all with the same brush and you are jumped on.
No person should have their own race taken into account and it should be ignored in that the race itself is considered to have no history or connection to the person, if they are complaining of racism. Each complaint should be treated in isolation and any complaint between any two races should be treated as seriously as any complaint between any two other races irrespective of what the races are.
No race should be pre-judged because of their race, and that includes judging a white person, because if you can't pre-judge for one, you can't for all. No other race can ascribe characteristics to whites as whites cannot do the same for everyone else. Every race should be treated equally in anything without fear or favour.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 21, 2011 19:53:30 GMT
I'm also tying to find where I said the phrase (as you seemingly quoted), "when her own race...." fumobici. I can't find that I said that anywhere. At least Ctrl F doesn't bring it up. "cannot countenance the fact that someone complains of racism when their own race practise it far worse." It was "their" rather than "her" preceding the irrelevant and disparaging racial comment. My apologies. Found it, no problem.
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Post by spindrift on Mar 21, 2011 19:55:31 GMT
Mark said ~
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 20:05:48 GMT
Thanks, Spindrift. I know next to nothing about the caste system, but now I feel I should go over to India and learn, then I can at least make some comments about it lol.
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